# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 97
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1929 "2023-01-19T16:52:39Z")
> [@Folly](#): > > I’m surprised they charged Alec Baldwin. I I guess I’m not. It makes sense. But I will confidently say here that he’ll either be acquitted or allowed to plead to a lesser charge. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1930 "2023-01-19T17:22:26Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > But I will confidently say here that he’ll either be acquitted or allowed to plead to a lesser charge. I’m thinking the same thing. Proving criminal responsibility is going to be tough. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1931 "2023-01-19T17:24:42Z")
Fair enough - involuntary manslaughter is basically “you didn’t intend to do it, but you responsible for the death of another human being” which seems to fit the circumstance. ---
**Author:** ![SwissMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@SwissMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwissMan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1932 "2023-01-19T17:27:36Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > He was the one holding the weapon. > > There is an old Army saying: > > It’s not your fault. > But it is your responsibility. > So it might as well be your fault. I would respectfully disagree that this sort of logic applies. In the armed forces, soldiers routinely handle live weapons that they know could be loaded with ammunition; they most likely load the weapons themselves. In that scenario, everyone is fully aware of this and takes proper precautions. In the situation at hand, you have a civilian actor on a film set. Guns that are used on a film set are intended to go through a chain of custody before they reach the performer that ensures that they are safe and are specifically not going to cause harm. Alec Baldwin is likely not an expert in firearms; it is not outside the realm of imagination that he took possession of the gun believing that it had been staged in a way that it would not be a harm to himself or anyone else on that set. At least, this is the likely argument that Baldwin’s lawyers will make if/when this goes to trial. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1933 "2023-01-19T17:28:06Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Fair enough - involuntary manslaughter is basically “you didn’t intend to do it, but you responsible for the death of another human being” which seems to fit the circumstance. With the added element of criminal negligence which will be the only element argued in a probable cause hearing or trial. ---
**Author:** ![SwissMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@SwissMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwissMan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1934 "2023-01-19T17:28:16Z")
I also agree with everyone else that Baldwin may plead to some lesser charge of negligence. I guess that will depend on whatever advice from legal counsel he receives. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1935 "2023-01-19T17:28:17Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Fair enough - involuntary manslaughter is basically “you didn’t intend to do it, but you responsible for the death of another human being” which seems to fit the circumstance. Yes, but I think a jury would be very reluctant to convict. ---
**Author:** ![SwissMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@SwissMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwissMan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1936 "2023-01-19T17:29:49Z")
I would think that criminal negligence would require some very convincing evidence that Baldwin knew the gun was unsafe but pressed forward with shooting the scene anyway. I don’t recall hearing any stories from the set stating this; if that was the case, you would think it would have leaked by now, over a year after the incident occurred. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1937 "2023-01-19T17:40:44Z")
> [@SwissMan](#): > > …it is not outside the realm of imagination that he took possession of the gun believing that it had been staged in a way that it would not be a harm to himself or anyone else on that set. When it comes to negligence, it is not the state of actual belief that matters, but the reasonableness of the belief and, here specifically, whether the actions taken in light of that belief were likewise reasonable. > [@SwissMan](#): > > I would think that criminal negligence would require some very convincing evidence that Baldwin knew the gun was unsafe but pressed forward with shooting the scene anyway. That would, I believe, go beyond negligence to recklessness, or even—if New Mexico recognizes such a thing—depraved indifference. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1938 "2023-01-19T18:03:43Z")
“New Mexico prosecutors will charge Baldwin and armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed with **two federal counts** of involuntary manslaughter over the death of Hutchins on the “Rust” film set in October 2021” So a **state** attorney is charging Baldwin with violating **federal** statutes??? I expect Baldwin was offered the same plea deal Hall was–but turned it down. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1939 "2023-01-19T18:34:00Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > So a **state** attorney is charging Baldwin with violating **federal** statutes??? Has to be a mistake by the reporter. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1940 "2023-01-19T18:47:51Z")
Or editor. Most of us here don’t have a very high opinion of the New York Post. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1941 "2023-01-19T19:10:18Z")
> [@SwissMan](#): > > In the situation at hand, you have a civilian actor on a film set. Guns that are used on a film set are intended to go through a chain of custody before they reach the performer that ensures that they are safe and are specifically not going to cause harm. Alec Baldwin is likely not an expert in firearms; it is not outside the realm of imagination that he took possession of the gun believing that it had been staged in a way that it would not be a harm to himself or anyone else on that set. That goes contrary to the mantra of « Always treat a gun as if it’s loaded. ». That’s a basic safety rule that applies. ---
**Author:** ![SwissMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e79b87/32.png) [@SwissMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SwissMan)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1942 "2023-01-19T19:12:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That goes contrary to the mantra of « Always treat a gun as if it’s loaded. ». That’s a basic safety rule that applies. If you are carrying any random gun around, that is a perfectly fine rule to use. Everyone on the set of this film knew the gun was going to be pointed and fired at some point for the scene that was being filmed. They were under the belief that the gun was staged in such a way that it would not actually fire a projectile. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1943 "2023-01-19T19:15:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That goes contrary to the mantra of « Always treat a gun as if it’s loaded. ». That’s a basic safety rule that applies. What I was trained… 1. Every gun is always loaded. 2. Never point a gun at anything you don’t intend to kill or destroy. 3. Keep your finger off the trigger unless you are pulling the trigger. 4. Be aware of everything near (and especially behind) whatever you’re shooting at. I own my own pistol (a real one) and made sure that I received formal training so I knew how to be safe. I don’t think I could possibly follow the safety rules I was taught and be able to film with a real gun. You’d have to violate the rules in order to get scenes done. I assume that’s why film sets have additional/alternative rules, and many other safety checks you wouldn’t have if you were using a normal gun outside of a film set. The regular rules don’t work there. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1944 "2023-01-19T19:16:20Z")
And this entire episode demonstrates what can happen when a person holding a gun relied on someone else saying « It’s not loaded. » I don’t think there’s a « Hollywood actor » exemption to the rule that you don’t handle a gun unless you’ve been trained in gun safety. ETA replying to Swissman, not Atasama. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1945 "2023-01-19T19:17:40Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Fair enough - involuntary manslaughter is basically “you didn’t intend to do it, but you responsible for the death of another human being” which seems to fit the circumstance. I guess. I don’t know the details, but was the mistake Baldwin’s? People do pull triggers while facing other actors in movies. As a producer and so forth, he may have some additional responsibility for on set situations. The director is not charged? Just him and the armorer? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1946 "2023-01-19T19:18:04Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I don’t think there’s a « Hollywood actor » exemption to the rule that you don’t handle a gun unless you’ve been trained in gun safety. Hasn’t this already been finely ground out in this thread? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1947 "2023-01-19T19:20:04Z")
But it keeps coming up. SwissMan just posted that Alec Baldwin is likely not an expert in firearms, as if that should reduce his liability. If he doesn’t have training in firearms, he shouldn’t be handling a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1948 "2023-01-19T19:20:45Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > As a producer and so forth, he may have some additional responsibility for on set situations. The director is not charged? Just him and the armorer? That’s what I’m wondering. The standard contracts would describe who’s responsible for what. I’d think the director and/or assistant director would be charged as well, since they’re ultimately responsible for the set. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=96) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=98)