Alex Rodriguez tested positive for steroids in 2003

[RickJay]

@Stink Fish Pot

IThis is a good question. I don’t know the answer to a day, but I can say that two things stand out in my mind that made me look at baseball differently. The first was Brady Anderson. I lived in Baltimore at the time, and this guy was a pee-wee one year, and the next he pounded out 50 home runs. At the time, very few people hit 50 home runs in baseball history, and it was a fairly big deal. Willie Stargell never hit 50 home runs in a season (I think). George Foster did it twice (again, from memory) and it was a huge deal. How many times did Hank Aaron do it? 50 home runs was the barometer for a monster year, and then it began to become routine.

The second thing was the bash brothers in Oakland. Take a look at Mark McGuire’s rookie card. He was a skinny kid with a big swing. Dave Kingman-like. Canseco shows up, clearly muscle bound, and McGuire grows into a monster. Sosa turned into a monster. I’ve seen friends at the gym on steroids, so I’m a bit familiar with the changes that can be achieved. I am not familiar with HGH, other than what I’ve read.

McGwire.

Firt of all, let’s get the timeline straight; Canseco didn’t show up, McGwire did. Canseco arrived before McGwire. (And on other nitpicky notes, Foster had one 50-homer year, 1977. Stargell and Aaron had none.)

Secondly, it’s a fool’s game to try to divine steroid use by statistics. McGwire hit 49 homers as a rookie. That’s 11 more than any other rookie season ever; clearly, the guy was not like other guys. A lot of steroid users are scrubs with no big home run years at all. If you ascribe any home run burst to steroids you’d have to conclude that Babe Ruth was on steroids, and Mickey Mantle, and that steroids suddenly became less popular in the late 60s. Hank aaron, who suddenly had his best home run percentages in his mid-to-late 30s, apparently discovered steroids late. You’d also have to conclude they were very popular in 1987 and then everyone stopped taking them in 1988, when home run totals dropped about 40%. Or you’d have to conclude all the pitchers started using 'roids in the 60s, but stopped using them in 1969.

Statistical standards in baseball are not consistent. In 1908 the average NL player hit .239 with one home run and made twice as many errors as a player in 2008. Home runs went from being rare events to commonplace between 1919 and 1929. Stolen bases were discarded as a strategy for thirty or forty YEARS before suddenly coming back into vogue in the 60s. The AL batting avedrage in 1968 was .230; five years later it was .258.

You can’t just assume a guy who hits a lot of home runs is on steroids (and you can’t assume a scrub who doesn’t hit a lot of homers isn’t.) Home runs are up today for a lot of reasons; ballpark construction, changes in the way bats are made, weight training (independent of steroids) and hitting approaches and philosophy.

Similarly, I’m leery of using a guy’s physical appearance as proof he’s on roids. (Barry Bonds, okay, is an extreme case.) Rafael Palmiero didn’t look like he was on roids but apparently he was. A-Rod (henceforth “Oompa Loompa” for his scary orange skin) all lean and tall, doesn’t look like a roider, but he is. On the other hand, Frank Thomas was built like an Abrams tank but I’ve never heard so much as a whisper he ever took steroids. Guys do get bigger and more muscular into their thirties - “old man strength,” they call it in strength sports like shot put and hammer throw. And you can take roids and apoparently not look like a cartoon, as Palmiero and Oompa Loompa demonstrate.

[Hawkeyeop]

@Stink Fish Pot

This is a good question. I don’t know the answer to a day, but I can say that two things stand out in my mind that made me look at baseball differently. The first was Brady Anderson. I lived in Baltimore at the time, and this guy was a pee-wee one year, and the next he pounded out 50 home runs. At the time, very few people hit 50 home runs in baseball history, and it was a fairly big deal. Willie Stargell never hit 50 home runs in a season (I think). George Foster did it twice (again, from memory) and it was a huge deal. How many times did Hank Aaron do it? 50 home runs was the barometer for a monster year, and then it began to become routine.

At age 27 this player tied a career high with 10 home-runs. The next year he hit 18 in 510 at bats. At 29 he hit just 5 in 376 at bats. At 30 he hit 43 in 559 at bats and had a slg of more than 100 points more than he ever did previously. He hit 27 hrs more in the rest of his career.

So my question is, what do you think Davey Johnson was on?

[Marley23]

@What_Exit

Instead of bennies a player could drink many cups of coffee or ‘energy’ drinks. This is possibly and even probably more dangerous then the bennies.

But coffee and energy drinks are not illegal or against the rules, and I don’t see any reason they should be.

The bennies did not lead to an explosion of home runs and appears to have been common back to the 50s.

So steroids are bad because they cause home runs (tell it to the pitchers who juice), or are they bad because they’re new (for the last two decades)? The answer is neither in my opinion. I don’t see any moral difference between taking amphetamines, which Barry Bonds failed a test for, don’t forget, and taking steroids. Maybe one is more effective than the other, but nobody would do either if they did not believe they work and create an edge.

[gonzomax]

The fences were moved in at many parks. The baseballs are reported to be wound tighter and are on steroids. The league shrunk the strike zone so pitchers have to serve up pitches. There are other factors.

[cmosdes]

I’m going to get slammed for this, but if you want to talk “bobble head” as an indication someone is juiced, that is exactly what I see when I saw this image.

[crypto]

@Hawkeyeop

At age 27 this player tied a career high with 10 home-runs. The next year he hit 18 in 510 at bats. At 29 he hit just 5 in 376 at bats. At 30 he hit 43 in 559 at bats and had a slg of more than 100 points more than he ever did previously. He hit 27 hrs more in the rest of his career.

So my question is, what do you think Davey Johnson was on?

Davey Johnson? How the hell do I know? Heroin? Maybe it was his contract year. Maybe he was in love. Maybe he had a good pair of glasses. That’s one of the stranger outlier years I’ve seen. Good bar betting material in that guy’s career stats.

@RickJay

Firt of all, let’s get the timeline straight; Canseco didn’t show up, McGwire did. Canseco arrived before McGwire. (And on other nitpicky notes, Foster had one 50-homer year, 1977. Stargell and Aaron had none.)

Thanks for setting the record straight. It was early this morning. I was working from memory. I was young, I felt a lot of pressure to come up with the answers my fans expected from one of the best posters of, well… all time. I didn’t know what I was taking, but the truth will set me free.

So, after reading this thread, I’ve come to a serious question.

Who really cares? Baseball is entertainment. Turn it into professional wrestling. Any drugs these players take hurt the players and not me or any one else. So, if you have the opinion that you can’t separate the 'roiders from the clean players (and I’m not sure I disagree with this), then open up the pharmacy and let the games begin. Everyone will be on the same playing field, everyone will have access to the same drugs, and no one will be able to complain that they tried to play clean. Those players that choose to try it on talent will be gone from the game quicker than you can say Brutus “The Barber” Beefcake.

Does this bother anyone? If so, why? They are just ballplayers, after all. They are there to entertain us, not to hold to some moral code. The hell with it all. At least it would all be understood for what it is… a game to entertain.

I don’t know. I’m one of those people that thought the stats mattered, but I guess I’ve been naive. Stats are subjective… dead ball era, live ball era, big ballparks, small ballparks, when the pitchers took over in the late 60’s, baseball lowered the mound. So what’s the big deal about steroids? Maybe none. One thing I think we can all agree on. Babe Ruth was on hot dogs, Mantle on beer.

Another statistical nugget. The Mendoza line, which was named for Mario Mendoza, stands for a batting average of .200. Mario Mendoza’s lifetime average was .215. Bob Uecker’s lifetime average was .200. Go figure.

[gonzomax]

Tejada , it is rumored will plead guilty to lying to congress about steroids today. He will hope he does not get thrown in jail.

[crypto]

@gonzomax

Tejada , it is rumored will plead guilty to lying to congress about steroids today. He will hope he does not get thrown in jail.

I doubt he’ll get jail time. From what I read, he lied about knowing about steroid use in his clubhouse, not about using them himself. Not ratting out fellow ballplayers doesn’t seem like a major offense, even though he did lie to the government. I figure he plea bargained and will admit to the lying in exchange for either parole or a suspended sentence.