# ALF/ELF What prevents us from blowing them out of the water? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 30, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475 "2008-04-30T15:19:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/1 "2008-04-30T15:19:40Z")
For those who don’t know, the [Animal Liberation Front](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Liberation_Front) and the [Earth Liberation Front](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_Liberation_Front) are eco-terrorist organizations who often sabotage and destroy private property to further their cause. Sea Shepherd is another group recently in the news for similar activities. My question is this, from my cursory reading of international law as it applies to the sea and specifically piracy; certain actions of these groups falls within the accepted definition of piracy. > [@](#): > > UNCLOS Article 101: Definition of Piracy > In the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea (UNCLOS) of 1982, “maritime piracy” consists of: > > ``` > (a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed: > > (i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft; > (ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State; > > (b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft; > (c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).[36] > > ``` Now, my understanding is that Pirates are designated : “Those **committing thefts** on the high seas, **inhibiting trade** , and **endangering maritime communication** are considered by sovereign states to be hostis humani generis (enemies of humanity).[34]” They have all at one time or another committed all of these acts. So what is to stop legal, law abiding trade vessels from calling in the local coast guard to pick up the pirates, and scuttling the pirate vessel to protect themselves? Just unwillingness to cause a complicated legal fuss; or is there some deeper law I’m not comprehending? ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/2 "2008-04-30T15:45:47Z")
Don’t Sea Shepherd just disrupt whale hunting by driving their boats inbetween the whalers and the whales? That’s not really piracy is it? Not to mention that current whaling only takes place under the highly dubious excuse of “scientific whaling”. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/3 "2008-04-30T16:25:29Z")
I don’t understand why some of these ship and installations that come under attack by such groups don’t have some sort of weapons on hand to strongly discourage most of these actions. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/4 "2008-04-30T16:27:16Z")
[QUOTE=Szlater] Don’t Sea Shepherd just disrupt whale hunting by driving their boats inbetween the whalers and the whales? That’s not really piracy is it? Not to mention that current whaling only takes place under the highly dubious excuse of “scientific whaling”. [/QUOTE] No, they also tangle up props, throw acid on deck, and vandalize equipment when they can get away with it. Agreement to whaling treaties is voluntary, and nations can pull out when and if they like. I don’t want this to devolve into a GD about the ethics of whaling though. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/5 "2008-04-30T16:31:03Z")
More on sea shepherd’s tactics from the Wiki > [@](#): > > Sea Shepherd engages in direct actions to protect such marine wildlife as seals, dolphins and whales. These have included more conventional protests, as well as, at times, scuttling and sinking fishing boats engaged in fishery operations while in harbor, sabotage of vessels in harbor, ramming the whaling ship Sierra in Portuguese harbor,[7] and seizure and destruction of drift nets at sea. Sea Shepherd has also conducted an intense media campaign against Japanese high-seas whaling and the Canadian sealing industry in particular. Despite the more direct nature of such actions (as contrasted with the actions of groups such as Greenpeace), there have been few reports of injuries and no reports of deaths during Sea Shepherd actions. The most recent injury report was made by two Japanese crewmen who claim being splashed with foul-smelling butyric acid during Sea Shepherd’s February 2007 action in the Ross Sea.[8] The Sea Shepherds admitted to throwing six one-litre bottles of butyric acid onto the deck of the Nisshin Maru although Paul Watson denied that any Japanese crew could have been harmed, saying that butyric acid is “a simple non-toxic butter acid, basically rancid butter”.[9] However, industrial safety data sheets warn of the corrosive properties of the acid, which can burn skin and eyes[10] and harm aquatic organisms.[1 ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/6 "2008-04-30T16:32:25Z")
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp] So what is to stop legal, law abiding trade vessels from calling in the local coast guard …? [/QUOTE] [Canadian Coast Guard seizes Sea Shepherd vessel](http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/13/2215291.htm) ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/7 "2008-04-30T16:36:02Z")
Like everyone else, they’re “innocent until proven guilty”. When there are good evidence against them (and sometimes when the evidence is poor), they get taken to court. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/8 "2008-04-30T16:37:04Z")
[QUOTE=Sunspace] [Canadian Coast Guard seizes Sea Shepherd vessel](http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/04/13/2215291.htm) [/QUOTE] Interesting, and good for the Canadians! I’m curious though as to whether the trade vessels themselves can undertake direct action, or whether they are subject to requesting the goodwill of the closest nation’s coast guard? If they can, why don’t they do so? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/9 "2008-04-30T16:40:05Z")
[QUOTE=naita] Like everyone else, they’re “innocent until proven guilty”. When there are good evidence against them (and sometimes when the evidence is poor), they get taken to court. [/QUOTE] Not really. > [@](#): > > Since piracy often takes place outside the territorial waters of any state, the prosecution of pirates by sovereign states represents a complex legal situation. The prosecution of pirates on the high seas contravenes the conventional freedom of the high seas. **However, because of universal jurisdiction, action can be taken against pirates without objection from the flag state of the pirate vessel.** This represents an exception to the principle extra territorium jus dicenti impune non paretur (the judgment of one who is exceeding his territorial jurisdiction may be disobeyed with impunity Bolding mine. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/10 "2008-04-30T17:19:24Z")
Most of those on the receiving end of such tactics don’t want to make martyrs out of the activists by responding too heavy-handedly. The French took a PR bath when their Clouseau-esque secret agents bombed the Greenpeace vessel _Rainbow Warrior_ in New Zealand in the mid-'80s and killed a guy. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/11 "2008-04-30T17:29:03Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Most of those on the receiving end of such tactics don’t want to make martyrs out of the activists by responding too heavy-handedly. The French took a PR bath when their Clouseau-esque secret agents bombed the Greenpeace vessel _Rainbow Warrior_ in New Zealand in the mid-'80s and killed a guy. [/QUOTE] I suppose this makes a certain amount of sense, but Greenpeace isn’t as blatantly criminal as Sea Shepherd, nor would the defending vessel be governmental, but private. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/12 "2008-04-30T17:33:07Z")
I believe there was a similar debate in Britain, during the sixties when plane hijackings first became big news (at the time, on paper at least, Piracy and Treason were still capital offenses in the UK). The conclusion was, no, its not piracy. Of course IMHO seeing as current terrorism legislation is not exactly a slap on the wrist, I’m not sure why this would even be needed. You already have cases where some dumb-ass who torched a Humvee is classified as a “terrorist” and hence getting a stiffer sentence that some murders or rapists. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/13 "2008-04-30T17:36:04Z")
Also we may be getting into GD territory here, but I don’t see the equilance between the likes of Greenpeace, who are a perfect legal respectable organization who practice the legitimate peaceful protests. And ALF/ELF who are a out and out terrorist crazees. ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2008, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/14 "2008-04-30T18:04:42Z")
[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir] Most of those on the receiving end of such tactics don’t want to make martyrs out of the activists by responding too heavy-handedly. The French took a PR bath when their Clouseau-esque secret agents bombed the Greenpeace vessel _Rainbow Warrior_ in New Zealand in the mid-'80s and killed a guy. [/QUOTE] > [@wiki](#): > > Sea Shepherd has also conducted an intense media campaign against Japanese high-seas whaling and the Canadian sealing industry in particular. If you take on a group that is skilled in gaining the sympathy of the media, you may win, but it could be a pyrrhic victory. This is especially true if you are doing something legal that happens to be unpopular in much of the world, such as whaling. The US threatened sanctions against Japan for lodging an objection against the commercial whaling moratorium, and something similar might happen if Japan encouraged its whalers to use violence against groups like Sea Shepherd. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2008, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/15 "2008-05-01T03:11:56Z")
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp] [QUOTE=naita] Like everyone else, they’re “innocent until proven guilty”. When there are good evidence against them (and sometimes when the evidence is poor), they get taken to court. [/QUOTE] Not really. > [@](#): > > Since piracy often takes place outside the territorial waters of any state, the prosecution of pirates by sovereign states represents a complex legal situation. The prosecution of pirates on the high seas contravenes the conventional freedom of the high seas. **However, because of universal jurisdiction, action can be taken against pirates without objection from the flag state of the pirate vessel.** This represents an exception to the principle extra territorium jus dicenti impune non paretur (the judgment of one who is exceeding his territorial jurisdiction may be disobeyed with impunity Bolding mine. [/QUOTE] That doesn’t mean that the pirates aren’t entitled to the normal protections of the criminal law, such as the presumption of innocence and the onus of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It just means that the ship that the country is registered with will not object to the capture of the ship in international waters, which is normally a breach of international law. ---
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2008, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/16 "2008-05-01T03:13:59Z")
[QUOTE=Acid Lamp] I suppose this makes a certain amount of sense, but Greenpeace isn’t as blatantly criminal as Sea Shepherd, nor would the defending vessel be governmental, but private. [/QUOTE] You’re saying Greenpeace is a criminal organisation? ---
**Author:** ![Tristan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tristan/32/18058_2.png) [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2008, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/17 "2008-05-01T03:19:40Z")
[QUOTE=glee] You’re saying Greenpeace is a criminal organisation? [/QUOTE] Don’t their tactics include trespass, and sabotage? Note: I’m not saying they are like the criminal nutjobs like ELF/ALF, but they do break the law. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2008, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/18 "2008-05-01T03:25:45Z")
Google “greenpeace members” and “arrested”. Someone certainly thinks they are. We probably ought to note that some consider greenpeace criminal and some don’t, and then make a Pit of GD thread of the issue if we’re so inclined. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2008, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/19 "2008-05-01T13:26:21Z")
[QUOTE=Northern Piper] That doesn’t mean that the pirates aren’t entitled to the normal protections of the criminal law, such as the presumption of innocence and the onus of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It just means that the ship that the country is registered with will not object to the capture of the ship in international waters, which is normally a breach of international law. [/QUOTE] This is what I was referring to. I wasn’t suggesting that we hang the lot of 'em as examples, but I am curious as to why private entities aren’t taking more aggressive steps in protecting their investments. If you can capture the pirates and their vessels under this protection it would certainly be cheaper to hire a small security crew to do so rather than buying new nets, props, and repair extensive damage to their ships. I should think that after a few of their boats are impounded or scuttled, they would have a much harder time securing the funds to continue their activities. It would be fairly simple to have someone on board video the criminal activities and radio in a plan of action to the closest local coast guard; arranging for pickup of pirates, and vessel if it is still sea-worthy. Donations would probably flood in briefly, but drop off as sharply as they continue to lose their vessels. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2008, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475/20 "2008-05-01T13:41:27Z")
Might I submit that they don’t take greater security measures for the same reason that we didn’t slap 60 marines at the front of all of the planes involved in the whole September 11th mess? Lightning strikes more often than eco-terror pirates… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alf-elf-what-prevents-us-from-blowing-them-out-of-the-water/447475.md?page=2)