# All Americans need education in Black studies **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 27, 2023, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888 "2023-01-27T13:53:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/121 "2023-01-27T18:07:28Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I won’t be daunted by “this will make the racists mad at us!” They’re _already_ making war on us and we have to fight back _hard_ or else lose ground. My concern isn’t that they will be mad, but that they will poison the curriculum. I think that’s a distinct possibility. That being said, I think that replacing half of my 7th grade “American history” class with “Black history in America” would have been a win. We could have spent less time on the search for the fountain of youth in Florida, and most of the coverage of the “triangle trade”, the civil war, and the civil rights movement could just be re-cast to look more from a Black perspective but otherwise just be moved over to that semester. ---
**Author:** ![Cham2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Cham2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cham2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/122 "2023-01-27T18:43:22Z")
> **Off-Topic Reply hidden by WE?** > > I really think the issue conservatives have with Black history is that they fear that it is teaching white children to hate themselves for being white. > > Being white is something out of control, you can’t control your skin color. > > All Americans should know all forms of history. They feel that history is being politicized to promote an agenda, like BLM, they don’t want that stuff taught to their children, because it has no bearing on their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/123 "2023-01-27T18:43:24Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > We could have spent less time on the search for the fountain of youth in Florida, and most of the coverage of the “triangle trade”, the civil war, and the civil rights movement could just be re-cast to look more from a Black perspective but otherwise just be moved over to that semester. Part of my concern is that exactly this would happen. The Triangle Trade wasn’t a part of Black history, it was a part of White history as well. It needs to be taught, not as something that Black people were involved in, but ALSO as something that White people were involved in. For White people the Triangle Trade isn’t Their story, it’s Our story. Same thing with the other material. If we teach the Civil Rights story as part of Black history, there may well be an implication that it’s not a part of White history, or even of American history. This is all assuming that your “moved over to that semester” is a Ctrl+X and Ctrl+V operation. If it’s Ctrl+C and Ctrl+V operation, I have much less objection :). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/124 "2023-01-27T18:46:49Z")
> **Off-Topic Reply hidden by WE?** > > > [@Cham2](#): > > > > All Americans should know all forms of history. They feel that history is being politicized to promote an agenda, like BLM, they don’t want that stuff taught to their children, because it has no bearing on their lives. > > Instead of speaking on behalf of “all Americans” (highly doubtful, by the way), would you mind telling us what _you_ feel? ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/125 "2023-01-27T18:47:02Z")
> **Off-Topic Reply hidden by WE?** > > > [@Cham2](#): > > > > I really think the issue conservatives have with Black history is that they fear that it is teaching white children to hate themselves for being white. > > Well, we need to tell them that’s wrong. I’ve learned a lot of Black history, but have never been taught to hate myself for being white. > > > [@Cham2](#): > > > > They feel that history is being politicized to promote an agenda, like BLM, they don’t want that stuff taught to their children, because it has no bearing on their lives. > > That’s just crazy talk. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/126 "2023-01-27T19:00:12Z")
I just can’t forget what a revelation it was in 5th grade when the _Scholastic Weekly Reader_ did a special issue on Black studies. It opened my eyes to vast areas of heretofore hidden knowledge. “There were great kingdoms and civilizations in Black Africa? There were Black cowboys in the Wild West? Why have these never been mentioned before?” Gift article by Karen Attiah: > **[Opinion | Florida is offering an advanced lesson in anti-Blackness](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/01/24/ap-african-american-studies-florida-desantis/?pwapi_token=eyJ0eXAiOiJKV1QiLCJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiJ9.eyJzdWJpZCI6IjI3ODMzMDQ0IiwicmVhc29uIjoiZ2lmdCIsIm5iZiI6MTY3NDc5NTYwMCwiaXNzIjoic3Vic2NyaXB0aW9ucyIsImV4cCI6MTY3NjA5MTU5OSwiaWF0IjoxNjc0Nzk1NjAwLCJqdGkiOiJjODk3N2JmNi1hNjVmLTRlNWMtYTM1ZC02NDdjYWFkN2Y4MGEiLCJ1cmwiOiJodHRwczovL3d3dy53YXNoaW5ndG9ucG9zdC5jb20vb3BpbmlvbnMvMjAyMy8wMS8yNC9hcC1hZnJpY2FuLWFtZXJpY2FuLXN0dWRpZXMtZmxvcmlkYS1kZXNhbnRpcy8ifQ.C-UqM-B1ocvpxGHI7q-NwfGptMthCc2dlYD4-jAhE0U&itid=gfta)** > > Florida’s rejection of AP African American studies shows what the fight against critical race theory was all about: making institutional anti-Blackness lawful again. > There’s that saying that goes, “White privilege is when your history is the core curriculum, and mine is an elective.” Well, to Florida and Gov. Ron DeSantis (R), Black history isn’t even worthy of that bare minimum. I won’t be satisfied until Black studies is securely established among the core curriculum. Attiah again: > **I will never forget how humiliating it was to ask my teacher why we weren’t learning about Africa and Black people when so many other groups’ histories were considered essential.** ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/127 "2023-01-27T19:15:46Z")
For the record, Florida didn’t ban African American studies as a high school subject of study - only the proposed AP course. I remember having the opportunity to take African American studies as an elective course, when I was a junior, in 2012-2013. It would have been the second semester, with the first semester being Holocaust studies. I ended up taking the Holocaust studies and then economics the second semester. Today, the following are approved high school courses in Florida (though not available at every school or even necessarily during every semester): - African-American History (#2100340 or #2100335) - mentioned on websites for Bay, Lake, Pasco, Seminole, St. Johns, St. Lucie, and Volusia School Districts - African-American History Honors (#2100336) - mentioned on websites for Pasco, Seminole, St. Johns, and St. Lucie School Districts - Examining the African American Experience in the 20th Century (#2104310) - approved, but apparently not offered anywhere except maybe St. Johns County School District Note that there are 69 school districts in Florida. Personally I think it would be better to advocate for increased availability of African American History courses before trying to make it mandatory. I strongly suspect the lack of offerings is related to the lack of social studies teachers who are willing and able to teach it - when I was in high school, it was my World History teacher who pushed for and obtained permission to teach the elective courses he alone offered. It wasn’t like there was a dedicated African American History teacher, he still had to teach his World History courses. The new law (not allowed to advocate against colorblindness) is just further disincentive for teachers who are mulling taking on an extra course. Adding a full semester of African American studies as a mandatory course in high school is a big ask. I managed to graduate high school without ever taking the following courses, - Calculus (not offered during years I had completed prereqs) - Chemistry (offered one year, but schedule conflict) - Physics (not offered) Furthermore none of these are part of the state-wide bachelor’s degree requirements. Why is African American studies more important than all of these? Do note, however, that Florida just added a half credit of personal financial literacy to the high school degree requirement. The number of required electives, in turn, dropped from eight credits to seven-and-a-half. @Johanna, as mandatory courses are a zero-sum problem I would be interested in knowing which specific credits you propose offsetting with an African American studies course. These are the current credit requirements for a high school diploma in Florida: 24 credits overall, one of which must be online - 4 credits in English - 4 credits in mathematics - 1 credit must be in Algebra I - 1 credit must be in Geometry - For the other two credits: - May substitute industry certification leading to college credit for both credits - May substitute computer science credits for up to 1 mathematics OR science credit - 3 credits in science - 1 credit must be in Biology I - 2 out of 3 science credits must have a laboratory component - For the other two credits: - May substitute industry certification leading to college credit for one credit - May substitute computer science credits for up to 1 mathematics OR science credit - 3 credits in social studies - 1 credit must be in U.S. History - 1 credit must be in World History - 1/2 credit must be in Economics - 1/2 credit must be in U.S. Government - 1 credit in fine or performing arts, speech and debate, or practical arts - 1 credit in physical education - 7 1/2 credits in electives - 1/2 credit in personal financial literacy Most students schedule 6 or 7 credits per year. As you can see the social studies credits are all mandatory, so if you want to add another social study half-credit you almost certainly need to remove one half-credit from somewhere else. If you’re thinking of whittling away more electives, keep in mind that programs in engineering, fine arts, band, drama, etc. offer level four courses, meaning students will often want four or more electives in one subject, or maybe eight electives in two subjects. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/128 "2023-01-27T19:18:27Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Attiah again: Attiah again: > [@](#): > > I have tried making this point over and over in my writing and in chats with well-meaning people who wanted to understand what the right was fussing about. I would hear people insist that if we just explained what critical race theory was, we could win by making fools of the conservatives who were banning nonexistent critical race theory courses. Those folks were wrong. I agree with Attiah here: we’re not just going to explain or educate our way out of this crisis. DeSantis et al are weaponizing anti-Blackness for their own gain, and we need to be clear on what they’re doing. While it’s crucial that we teach kids about the full history of our nation and don’t downplay the centrality of racism to that history, it’s not enough. The cri de coeur must be answered with systemic changes. ---
**Author:** ![Cham2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Cham2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cham2)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/129 "2023-01-27T19:19:21Z")
> **Off-Topic Reply hidden by WE?** > > > [@Procrustus](#): > > > > but have never been taught to hate myself for being white. > > You shouldn’t. White guilt is stupid and people who wallow in that are losers. You cannot control your birth. You should be proud of who you are. > > Schools should be teaching students history, not hatred. People like Kendi X and Tim Wise don’t help the black cause with the throwdowns on white students. > > Also, do you even carry history with you after high school? A lot of people don’t feel what they learned in high school applies to their life after HS. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/130 "2023-01-27T19:20:28Z")
**Modhat** : This is off-topic and must stop now. No More white guilt hijacks. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/131 "2023-01-27T19:23:37Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > The Triangle Trade wasn’t a part of Black history, it was a part of White history as well. It needs to be taught, not as something that Black people were involved in, but ALSO as something that White people were involved in. For White people the Triangle Trade isn’t Their story, it’s Our story. Agreed, though I note that in the '10s we were taught the Triangle Trade in both World History and U.S. History. And we learned a number of African kingdoms in World History, as well as a brief history of some of the Carribean nations and their independence movements. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Tan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/charlie_tan/32/12582_2.png) [@Charlie\_Tan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Tan)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/132 "2023-01-27T19:27:29Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Otherwise, why is there education? [Tangent] You really wanna know? To teach kids to be on time, sit down, be quiet and do as they are told. I’m not being facetious. Mandatory schooling coincided with the emergence of industrialization. When you understand that this is the starting point, it’s much easier to understand why school is as it is, even 200 years later. CT, retired HS teacher. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/133 "2023-01-27T20:04:36Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Then what do we have a Department of Education for? For establishing policies on, distributing, and monitoring federal financial aid, collecting data, disseminating research, focusing attention on issues, and prohibiting discrimination. ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/134 "2023-01-27T20:35:33Z")
I might have benefited most in high school from learning Black history period in junior high or high school. I’ve always been thrilled with reading primary documents since i was in first grade. I get to share them with my nephews sometimes. What i mostly try to share with them is how to appreciate an aspect of Black culture with the rest of the culture. I like the politics, music, art but have to appreciate the culture more altogether. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/135 "2023-01-27T20:40:51Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Here are some places you can start: > > - [Brit Hawthorne](https://britthawthorne.com/about/) writes about creating an anti-racist classroom. > - [Ibrim X. Kendi](https://www.kqed.org/mindshift/54999/how-ibram-x-kendis-definition-of-antiracism-applies-to-schools) talks about emphasizing system changes. As one example, he advocates moving away from reliance on standardized tests that have proven racist outcomes. > - [Zaretta Hammond](https://crtandthebrain.com/about/) advocates changing classroom structures to decenter White cultural practices and to incorporate deep cultural structures that are more welcoming to BIPOC students. Thank you! This is really interesting and is fighting my ignorance about the topic. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/136 "2023-01-27T20:41:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Why not Asian studies? Native American studies? Irish studies? Jewish studies? Hispanic studies? (to name a few) For all that those are worthy topics, cultures, and people to study, in the US none of them have been enslaved, brutalized, dehumanized, and systematically held down like those of African descent. Except, arguably, the Native Americans, so let’s do a second course on them after the universal Black studies course. Perhaps Americans would be less arrogant and full of themselves if they acknowledged the stain of slavery and genocide during the building of the nation. ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/137 "2023-01-27T20:43:47Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Debate means I get to say when I think you’re wrong, and you get to say back to me why you think I’m wrong. My voice is not less than another’s. Come on and tell me why you think I’m wrong. Don’t upset the chess board just because you don’t like how the game is going. I think you’re right in the sense that this type of course will reduce ignorance. I think you’re wrong in the sense that in the United States of 2023, most racism is rooted in hatred, not in ignorance, and treating ignorance is unlikely to do anything to reduce hatred. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/138 "2023-01-27T20:53:24Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Suggesting students get more in depth exposure to the history of Native Americans, Hispanics, Asians, Jews, along with African Americans does not diminish or undermine the goal of your OP. This country has complicated history with all kinds of groups, and the study of that history is important. True. And teaching of history overall could be much improved. But given that racism is such an entrenched and toxic part of our society starting with the actual history of Black people in the US is not a bad start to fixing some of those problems. Teaching about all those other people and their suffering and successes despite racism and oppression is also valuable, but if we must start somewhere with just one starting with the African diaspora in the US isn’t a bad place to start IMO. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/139 "2023-01-27T21:04:00Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > What parts of American History would you want removed to make time for Black History? Studying history shouldn’t be a zero-sum game. _\>sigh\<_ I realize there is a difference between the ideal world in my head and the actual world outside of my head. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2023, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888/140 "2023-01-27T21:08:43Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#): > > most racism is rooted in hatred, not in ignorance, and treating ignorance is unlikely to do anything to reduce hatred. Giving people knowledge of racism, the forms it takes and the harms it does, may better equip them to fight back against hatred. If people don’t recognize dog whistles for what they are, or accept the status quo because it isn’t hurting them, then even “well meaning people” can not only not fight against, but even inadvertently contribute to the harms that racism does. One thing that I do believe should be stressed is how much racism hurts _everyone_. If you are white, you are harmed by racism against Black people. Absolutely Black people are harmed _more_, but I think that if people stopped seeing it as a zero sum game, where in order for Black people to have the same privileges as a white person, that white person has to lose something, when instead it’s a positive sum game, and the white person benefits as well from equality and equity for all. As to the OP, I agree with the sentiment, the history of Black people in our country _should_ be taught more, a whole lot more. Thinking back on my education, I learned that the civil war ended slavery, and then MLK had a dream, made a speech, and ended racism. Maybe there was a _bit_ more nuance than that, but not much. There was nothing about redlining, or the Tuskegee experiment, or the Tulsa Massacre, or… the list goes on, and I’m sadly still learning about _more_ things that were done to Black people, and are _still_ being done to Black people. So, I wouldn’t replace American history with Black history, but I would certainly revise the syllabi of American history to include a whole lot more that is currently whitewashed. As to what originally prompted the OP to make the thread, I would also, as part of either this class or other humanities class, go over in explicit detail different dog whistles and other problematic language. Both so that well meaning people can avoid harming others unintentionally with hurtful language, and so that they can recognize when others are doing so and thinking that they are being oh so clever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-americans-need-education-in-black-studies/978888.md?page=8)