# All cars should be required to have E-Z Pass/RFID technology **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379 "2007-10-28T22:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/181 "2007-10-30T23:29:19Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] The problem is that your hypothetical involves the federal government, which, as far as I know, is not in the business of traffic control. [/quote] I said “legislature” not “Congress,” and anyway I don’t see why the distinction is important. Moreover, the federal government does play a role in traffic control. An example: [Turn on red - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_turn_on_red) But anyway, feel free to assume that the proposed law would be enacted in the same way that uniform state license plate laws have been established. > [@](#): > > Having said that, I don’t see how they could serve the same purpose. would every tow truck driver, meter maid, highway patrolman, etc. have a monitoring device? You can assume that the EZ-Pass could be monitored by anyone who can monitor a license plate. > [@](#): > > So, unless your EZPass hypothetical only involves retrieving and correlating the information after reasonable cause has been established, which ASAIK is not how EZPass works, then yes, I would object in principle. Fine, then it follows that the purpose behind the law is actually not the critical factor for you. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/182 "2007-10-30T23:30:22Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] If law enforcement wants to follow somebody around, I doubt they have to justify it to anyone. [/QUOTE] Nonsense. It costs a lot of man-hours to follow somebody around, and the department has to justify its use of resources. Making sure that government surveillance is an expensive PITA (and thus must be limited in its use) and readily detectable (so that abuses can be caught) is essential to the preservation of privacy. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/183 "2007-10-30T23:32:45Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Cherry picking is easy but not very convincing. [/QUOTE] Since you declare up front that you will not listen to evidence against your position, why on earth should anyone take you seriously? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/184 "2007-10-30T23:39:23Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] Nonsense. It costs a lot of man-hours to follow somebody around, and the department has to justify its use of resources. [/quote] To a judge? I doubt it. > [@](#): > > Making sure that government surveillance is an expensive PITA (and thus must be limited in its use) . . . is essential to the preservation of privacy. Yeah, maybe they should get rid of computerized motor vehicle records. That would make it much more of a PITA to check somebody’s plates and protect everyone’s privacy. > [@](#): > > and readily detectable (so that abuses can be caught) This I agree with to a certain extent. Generally speaking, if the cops can watch us AND we can watch the cops, then we are all better off. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/185 "2007-10-30T23:45:12Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Could you name _any_ way in which you would give the government even .0000001% more power if it would make us safer? [/QUOTE] Conditions on which I would begin to consider it: 1. Iron-clad evidence that it would in fact increase safety. 2. A surrender of at least an equivalent government power in some other area. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/186 "2007-10-30T23:48:29Z")
[QUOTE=BlinkingDuck] Try speeding in the state of South Dakota with an out of state license plate. I lived there for one year and noticed that all but a few cars pulled over were out of state. I asked about this of the locals and they laughed and said that it was common knowledge that the state derived income from out of staters. Heck, When I lived in WY I noticed the same thing…except they had county identifiers on their plates. [/QUOTE] A good example of why government monitoring needs to remain an expensive, manpower-intensive PITA for the government’s agents. The cheaper it gets, the more incentive the government has to play these gotcha games. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/187 "2007-10-31T00:18:36Z")
Am I in the twilight zone? Someone on the lefty leaning SDMB has lasted 4 pages advocating government monitoring of EVERYWHERE WE DRIVE and hasn’t been unanimously pitted? Remember when G.W. Bush was eavesdropping on terrorists talking to their buddies without a warrant? Outrage! How dare he do that! An American has a constitutional right to speak and plan attacks with terrorists at any time! RFIDs in cars? A reasonable plan that needs to be debated? WTF? Brazil, have you even read the 4th amendment? Does it mean anything to you? Do you understand how a license plate which doesn’t track your movement, unless you commit some sort of irregular behavior that would make a person write it down, is different from an RFID chip in the car which tracks everywhere you go? ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/188 "2007-10-31T00:47:50Z")
[QUOTE=jtgain] Remember when G.W. Bush was eavesdropping on terrorists talking to their buddies without a warrant? [/quote] The key phrase there is “ **without a warrant** ”. I don’t recall anybody arguing that the government has no right to tap phone lines. The issue is whether the President has the right to do it without authorization from the court. I think it’s the same with RFID on cars, the real issue is in what way the information is available. Using it for traffic enforcement is perfectly legitimate, IMO. That includes issuing speeding tickets based on average travel time determined by RFID records. It can also be used to ticket those who run red lights, made an illegal turn, etc. These uses don’t violate your right of privacy. But I agree it can be easily abused. I think a court order should be necessary to use RFID records for anything other than traffic enforcement. Like criminal investigations (e.g. getting a list of cars that were near a crime scene). That way it’s no more intrusive than, say, credit card records retained by businesses you deal with. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/189 "2007-10-31T00:48:47Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] An RFID would be an equally effective way of doing the same, no? [/QUOTE] What part of ‘no’ were you missing? EZ-Pass tags require special scanners that work at 5 MPH at a distance of about 10 feet. There are _special_ _very expensive_ ones that do up to 35 MPH at a distance of 10 feet. There are _really long_ and expensive ones that do 60 MPH at a distance of 10 feet. License plates can be read at the limit of visual acuity if the car is moving or stopped, without special equipment. You would literally have to roof every road to do this RFID scheme. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/190 "2007-10-31T00:51:11Z")
[QUOTE=E-Sabbath] What part of ‘no’ were you missing? EZ-Pass tags require special scanners that work at 5 MPH at a distance of about 10 feet. [/QUOTE] OK, my mistake there, I was careless. I agree an RFID is not an effective _replacement_ for a license plate (and have said so already). I do think using it _in addition to_ the license plate has real benefits. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/191 "2007-10-31T01:23:27Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] The key phrase there is “ **without a warrant** ”. I don’t recall anybody arguing that the government has no right to tap phone lines. The issue is whether the President has the right to do it without authorization from the court. I think it’s the same with RFID on cars, the real issue is in what way the information is available. Using it for traffic enforcement is perfectly legitimate, IMO. That includes issuing speeding tickets based on average travel time determined by RFID records. It can also be used to ticket those who run red lights, made an illegal turn, etc. These uses don’t violate your right of privacy. But I agree it can be easily abused. I think a court order should be necessary to use RFID records for anything other than traffic enforcement. Like criminal investigations (e.g. getting a list of cars that were near a crime scene). That way it’s no more intrusive than, say, credit card records retained by businesses you deal with. [/QUOTE] Why wouldn’t the police need probable cause that you were speeding, red light running, or making an illegal turn in order to access your EZ pass records? You say that these uses don’t violate my privacy? Why? Just because I would only get a small fine versus a long term in prison, under your situations? It is still a violation of my 4th amendment rights.. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/192 "2007-10-31T01:32:33Z")
[QUOTE=jtgain] Why wouldn’t the police need probable cause that you were speeding, red light running, or making an illegal turn in order to access your EZ pass records? [/quote] OK, IANAL so maybe I’m wrong. Does a speed trap need probable cause to measure the speed of my car? Does a police officer need probable cause before he looks in my direction to see if I’m making an illegal turn? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/193 "2007-10-31T01:48:48Z")
Seems to me that anyone who objects most vigorously has something to hide. I have had an E-Z Pass in my car for … gosh, almost 10 years? Something like that. As I’ve nothing to hide and am not a criminal, it matters not who knows where I drive and when. –shrug-- How could I object to expanding the use to every motor vehicle if it would mean being able to track and capture criminals? You recover one kidnapped child before they die, capture one criminal who otherwise would have gotten away and the entire program is worth it, IMHO. Excellent idea, I say. EDTA: **E-Sabbath** , in the last month alone I’ve driven through E-Z Pass scanners with posted speeds of 55. The scanners were ( to be conservative ) 30-40 feet above the roof of my car. Hardly 10 feet away. Cartooniverse ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/194 "2007-10-31T02:11:17Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Ok, so if a law was passed requiring EZ-Pass-like devices on every car, and the purpose of the law was to aid in toll collection as well as traffic enforcement (just like license plates), you wouldn’t have any objection, in principle, to the law? [/QUOTE] Yes, I would, actually. I don’t believe such an intrusive device is warranted either for toll collection (what if I never drive on tollways?), nor for traffic enforcement (I don’t think that making law enforcement of misdemeanors a little easier in any way justifies having to track every driver every minute they are on the road). ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/195 "2007-10-31T02:18:38Z")
[QUOTE=scr4] I reminded you because you were making comparisons with DNA testing of certain groups. There’s a huge difference between tracking individuals and tracking automobiles. [/QUOTE] I don’t see the huge difference. As I pointed out way back on the first page of this thread, I essentially drive my car everywhere I go, and it’s a rare occasion that I’m not within 50 yards of it. If they tracked my car, they would know exactly where I am all day long. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/196 "2007-10-31T02:26:25Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] Seems to me that anyone who objects most vigorously has something to hide. [/QUOTE] Og help me, that is such a stupid argument. I object to someone following me into a bathroom stall. That doesn’t mean that I’m going into the bathroom stall to plot someone’s murder. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/197 "2007-10-31T02:26:49Z")
[QUOTE=Cartooniverse] Seems to me that anyone who objects most vigorously has something to hide. [/QUOTE] Of course, you can say that about having your phone tapped, your e-mail monitored, your house searched, being strip searched at the airport, etc. etc. Only someone with something to hide would object to any of that, right? > [@](#): > > I have had an E-Z Pass in my car for … gosh, almost 10 years? Something like that. As I’ve nothing to hide and am not a criminal, it matters not who knows where I drive and when. I have one, too. For me, the benefit outweighs the drawbacks. However, if they decided to start issuing speeding tickets or other moving violations based on data gathered from them, I would stop using it in a minute. I think that every citizen should be allowed to assess the benefit/risk ratio for themselves, and decide whether or not they want the thing. > [@](#): > > –shrug-- How could I object to expanding the use to every motor vehicle if it would mean being able to track and capture criminals? You recover one kidnapped child before they die, capture one criminal who otherwise would have gotten away and the entire program is worth it, IMHO. As far as I’m concerned, you might as well then allow phone tapping and e-mail monitoring. Why not catch all the criminals the easy way? ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/198 "2007-10-31T02:46:33Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] As far as I’m concerned, you might as well then allow phone tapping and e-mail monitoring. Why not catch all the criminals the easy way? [/QUOTE] Exactly. When you look at it, people only commit crimes because they are _free_ to. So, we know how to remedy that. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/199 "2007-10-31T03:25:23Z")
I estimated. The 55 version isn’t near me, it’s up north of where I go. I know the 35 on the Tappan Zee is about 10 feet above my car. It _is_ about twenty feet _long_, though, right? ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/200 "2007-10-31T04:22:17Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] Conditions on which I would begin to consider it: 1. Iron-clad evidence that it would in fact increase safety. 2. A surrender of at least an equivalent government power in some other area. [/QUOTE] Surprise, I agree with you. Now we might or might not agree on what exactly constitutes “iron-clad evidence” but we are starting off agreeing in principle. I’d say that if you look at the number of criminals that use cars or trucks when committing their crimes and you look at RFID efficiency that’s about as close to iron-clad as I can imagine. If it’s not good enough for you tell me what it would take for any new program. And as I said before I’m a libertarian, I’d love to say, put a limit on how much taxes the government can collect, in exchange for this program. Or force the government out of the health care industry. Or the housing industry, etc. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379.md?page=11)