# All cars should be required to have E-Z Pass/RFID technology **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379 "2007-10-28T22:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/101 "2007-10-29T20:40:53Z")
Practically, the government may be able to spy on us with our license plates. In principle, however, that is not the purpose of a license plate, it will have been co-opted for that use. RFID, OTOH can be used to track us, and tracking is the ONLY reason it would be added to licensing requirements. It will not have been co-opted for an unfortunate purpose, it was implemented entirely for that purpose. That makes it different, in principle, if not in practice. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/102 "2007-10-29T21:02:08Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] I didn’t think the law you cited was analogous, and I explained why. [/quote] Fine, but you have offered essentially nothing of your own. > [@](#): > > Actually, no. I will revise what I said to the following: While in reality, an EZ-Pass-like device might be more practical and/or expedient when trying to catch criminals, in principle, it is wrong to track the movements of innocent citizens on the presumption that they might commit a crime. Ok, and why are license plates ok with you? (Assuming that they are ok with you?) After all, license plates too could be used to track the movements of innocent citizens. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/103 "2007-10-29T21:14:55Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Ok, and why are license plates ok with you? (Assuming that they are ok with you?) After all, license plates too could be used to track the movements of innocent citizens. [/QUOTE] I don’t want to speak for **Sarahfeena** , but I would bet that the reason is the one explained very well by **Cheesesteak** at the top of this page. (It summed up my view pretty well, anyway.) LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/104 "2007-10-29T21:16:08Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Ok, and why are license plates ok with you? (Assuming that they are ok with you?) After all, license plates too could be used to track the movements of innocent citizens. [/QUOTE] You seem to be missing a very obvious point here. One that \*\*Cheesesteak \*\*tried to make above. The OP is suggesting that two things happen. 1) That transmitters be placed by law in all motor vehicles, and 2) that a nationwide system of detectors be set up to monitor the movement of every motor vehicle. IOW, the sole purpose of the system is track such movements. You may know better than I, but it seems to me that the only way to use license plates as a tracking system is to photograph them, retrieve the photo, and do a search on the number. Whereas with the abovementioned system, all one needs to do is enter the ezpass ID and every movement is instantly available. If someone were to suggest that a nationwide system be set in place that could somehow ID and record every license plate that passed, with automatic retrieval of pertinent info, then maybe you would have a valid analogy. But since such a system does not exist, and would likely face exactly the same objections raised in this thread, it is difficult to take your point seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/105 "2007-10-29T21:22:10Z")
I’m having a tough time keeping up with this today…combine **Cheesesteak** and **Contrapuntal’s** posts, and that covers pretty much anything I would say in response. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/106 "2007-10-29T21:28:12Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] Practically, the government may be able to spy on us with our license plates. In principle, however, that is not the purpose of a license plate, it will have been co-opted for that use. RFID, OTOH can be used to track us, and tracking is the ONLY reason it would be added to licensing requirements. It will not have been co-opted for an unfortunate purpose, it was implemented entirely for that purpose. That makes it different, in principle, if not in practice. [/QUOTE] Well, suppose that a law was proposed that required everyone to get an EZ-Pass-like unit so that toll collection could be automated and so that police would make fewer errors identifying cars. Would you have any objections, in principle, to such a law? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/107 "2007-10-29T21:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > You may know better than I, but it seems to me that the only way to use license plates as a tracking system is to photograph them, retrieve the photo, and do a search on the number. Whereas with the abovementioned system, all one needs to do is enter the ezpass ID and every movement is instantly available. So one method would be much more cumbersome than the other, right? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/108 "2007-10-29T21:45:38Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] So one method would be much more cumbersome than the other, right? [/QUOTE] One is more cumbersome, the other is more loathsome. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/109 "2007-10-29T21:46:56Z")
From the [Supreme Court](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=000&invol=99-8508#section1): > [@](#): > > ``` > We have said that the Fourth Amendment draws "a firm line at the entrance to the house," Payton, 445 U. S., at 590. That line, we think, must be not only firm but also bright--which requires clear specification of those methods of surveillance that require a warrant. While it is certainly possible to conclude from the videotape of the thermal imaging that occurred in this case that no "significant" compromise of the homeowner's privacy has occurred, we must take the long view, from the original meaning of the Fourth Amendment forward. > > "The Fourth Amendment is to be construed in the light of what was deemed an unreasonable search and seizure when it was adopted, and in a manner which will conserve public interests as well as the interests and rights of individual citizens." Carroll v. United States, 267 U. S. 132, 149 (1925). > > ``` > > Where, as here, the Government uses a device that is not in general public use, to explore details of the home that would previously have been unknowable without physical intrusion, the surveillance is a “search” and is presumptively unreasonable without a warrant. Now, this is all related the home, but the general principle appears to be that unless you have a well defined reason for any search beyond naked eye, you need to specify probably cause to a judge first. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/110 "2007-10-29T21:51:42Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Would you have any objections, in principle, to such a law? [/QUOTE] I would have very few objections to the toll aspect of that law. Toll roads are generally limited access highways, and often have toll related traffic issues. Universal EZ Pass use on those highways would significantly ease traffic during peak times, I have no objection to requiring them, for toll road use. It’s technology designed for a purpose, easing traffic and toll collection, it accomplishes that purpose. I accept that the police will be able to subpoena the records for investigating crimes. I don’t think the police need EZ Pass to help in identifying cars, so I would object to that side of it. I would consider it a vanishingly small percentage of the time that police are unable to do their jobs because they couldn’t identify a car electronically. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/111 "2007-10-29T21:54:40Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] the other is more loathsome. [/QUOTE] Exactly why is it more loathsome? One method uses the visible portion of the spectrum. The other method uses higher frequency signals. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/112 "2007-10-29T21:56:44Z")
[QUOTE=Cheesesteak] I would have very few objections to the toll aspect of that law. Toll roads are generally limited access highways, and often have toll related traffic issues. Universal EZ Pass use on those highways would significantly ease traffic during peak times, I have no objection to requiring them, for toll road use. It’s technology designed for a purpose, easing traffic and toll collection, it accomplishes that purpose. I accept that the police will be able to subpoena the records for investigating crimes. I don’t think the police need EZ Pass to help in identifying cars, so I would object to that side of it. I would consider it a vanishingly small percentage of the time that police are unable to do their jobs because they couldn’t identify a car electronically. [/QUOTE] In many cities, it happens regularly that parking enforcement people make out tickets incorrectly. I suspect that the tickets would have fewer errors if an EZ-Pass-like system were used. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/113 "2007-10-29T21:57:47Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Exactly why is it more loathsome? [/QUOTE] Because it involves the government spying on the citizenry. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/114 "2007-10-29T22:00:05Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Because it involves the government spying on the citizenry. [/QUOTE] If the government set up a system to photograph peoples’ license plates and put them in a database, would that be “spying” in your view? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/115 "2007-10-29T22:48:15Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] I would repeat my request. Let’s give this discussion some focus: Please give me a few examples from the last 10 or 20 years in which the government abused it’s ability to keep track of private citizens and the result was a serious detriment to the citizen. [/QUOTE] Except that wasn’t **Plan B’s** statement, was it? He or she stated: [QUOTE=Plan B] I anticipate that some civil libertarians will object. I can see the theoretical point, I even agree that it’s generally dangerous to give the government more power. But when you consider the hundreds of years of allowing the government court-ordered intrusive powers in criminal cases, and the extremely low numbers of abuses of that power, I’d say it’s worth doing. Not just in the US, but in all democracies. [/QUOTE] The argument was that giving the government intrusive power in the past several hundred years has only led to “extremely low numbers of abuses.” You are now trying to alter the playing field. This is a NEW power being proposed for the police - the power to track you wherever you drive. It isn’t surprising such a power has not been abused in the past because the police have not had it. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/116 "2007-10-29T22:50:24Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Exactly why is it more loathsome? One method uses the visible portion of the spectrum. The other method uses higher frequency signals. [/QUOTE] There is some interesting case law you might want to read up regarding the use of heat detectors in drug busts. The courts seem to think there is a difference in the method used to gather evidence of allegedly criminal activity. Kyollo v. U.S. Justice Scalia himself found that to point a heat detector at a private house needs a warrant. Looking though a window on the other hand would not need a warrant. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/117 "2007-10-29T23:00:30Z")
[QUOTE=villa] The argument was that giving the government intrusive power in the past several hundred years has only led to “extremely low numbers of abuses.” You are now trying to alter the playing field. [/quote] How? I’m just asking for a few examples to give the discussion some focus. > [@](#): > > This is a NEW power being proposed for the police - the power to track you wherever you drive. It isn’t surprising such a power has not been abused in the past because the police have not had it. Sure they have. You think the authorities have never obtained somebody’s bank records? credit card records? cell phone records? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/118 "2007-10-29T23:06:04Z")
[QUOTE=villa] There is some interesting case law you might want to read up regarding the use of heat detectors in drug busts. The courts seem to think there is a difference in the method used to gather evidence of allegedly criminal activity. Kyollo v. U.S. Justice Scalia himself found that to point a heat detector at a private house needs a warrant. Looking though a window on the other hand would not need a warrant. [/QUOTE] That’s interesting. What about intercepting the signal from a cordless phone? I recall reading somewhere that was ok. So ultraviolet emissions are fair game? ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/119 "2007-10-29T23:10:42Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] If someone were to suggest that a nationwide system be set in place that could somehow ID and record every license plate that passed, with automatic retrieval of pertinent info, then maybe you would have a valid analogy. But since such a system does not exist, and would likely face exactly the same objections raised in this thread, it is difficult to take your point seriously. [/QUOTE] Maybe I missed it, but a system like this already exists (though not nationwide). [http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2005/06/67864](http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2005/06/67864) > [@](#): > > Using character-recognition technology developed for the Italian Post Office to read postal addresses, four robot eyes in the course of one night queried more than 12,000 license plates, recovered seven stolen cars and resulted in three arrests. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/120 "2007-10-29T23:19:18Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] If the government set up a system to photograph peoples’ license plates and put them in a database, would that be “spying” in your view? [/QUOTE] As stated, perhaps not. But as I stated previously? Yes. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379.md?page=7)