# All cars should be required to have E-Z Pass/RFID technology **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379 "2007-10-28T22:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/121 "2007-10-29T23:23:26Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] As stated, perhaps not. But as I stated previously? Yes. [/QUOTE] 😕 What do you mean? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/122 "2007-10-29T23:30:47Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Sure they have. You think the authorities have never obtained somebody’s bank records? credit card records? cell phone records? [/QUOTE] And they had to prove to a judge that they had probably cause to do so. What you are proposing is that the equivalent of giving the police access to everyone’s bank, credit card, and cell phone records, to comb through at their leisure, and find incriminating, embarrassing, or politically sensitive materials? Just because they may have good reason to go there occasionally and with good cause, doesn’t mean they should have access to that information at all times. Until the police have probably cause as approved by a judge, they cannot do a search that is above and beyond some very basic parameters. That’s the way the US Constitution has been interpreted by the courts, and until they rule otherwise, that’s how it’s going to stay. You’re fighting some very basic precepts of the Constitution here, and it’s very culturally ingrained. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/123 "2007-10-29T23:30:50Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] 😕 What do you mean? [/QUOTE] If all they are doing is photographing license plates and putting them in a database, perhaps not. At any rate, that is not the point at hand. I was referring to photographing \*every \*license plate, linking it to the car owner, and making the information instantly available to the government. If keeping track of my every vehicular movement is not spying on me, I don’t know what is. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/124 "2007-10-29T23:37:34Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] And they had to prove to a judge that they had probably cause to do so. [/quote] Cite? > [@](#): > > What you are proposing is that the equivalent of giving the police access to everyone’s bank, credit card, and cell phone records, to comb through at their leisure, and find incriminating, embarrassing, or politically sensitive materials? No. The proposal seems to include requiring judicial approval. See Post #14 in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2007, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/125 "2007-10-29T23:41:22Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] If all they are doing is photographing license plates and putting them in a database, perhaps not. At any rate, that is not the point at hand. I was referring to photographing \*every \*license plate, linking it to the car owner, and making the information instantly available to the government. If keeping track of my every vehicular movement is not spying on me, I don’t know what is. [/QUOTE] Suppose that government agents follow somebody they consider suspicious in order to find out where he or she is going; whom he is meeting with; etc. Would you consider that spying too? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/126 "2007-10-30T00:48:55Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] What the heck, **Happy Scrappy** , why don’t we just agree to have chips implanted right under our skin? It would make it so much easier to catch criminals! What? You don’t want the government tracking your every move? Why not? Do you have something to hide? [/QUOTE] I was going to propose a different implantation method but your suggestion works. The chips could read bio-signs and alert police to alcohol levels or whatever the “state” decides is inappropriate. We are not subjects of the state. It is not the function of government to monitor our lives. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/127 "2007-10-30T01:06:02Z")
> [@](#): > > If the government set up a system to photograph peoples’ license plates and put them in a database, would that be “spying” in your view? In my opinion, yes, it would be. The government has no business monitoring the activities of a group of people when it has no basis to assume any of these people have committed any crime - or that any crime has even occurred. (And it doesn’t count if the government claims that if it monitors enough people then, statistically speaking, some fraction of them will be criminals.) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/128 "2007-10-30T01:15:17Z")
> [@](#): > > Please give me a few examples from the last 10 or 20 years in which the government abused it’s ability to keep track of private citizens and the result was a serious detriment to the citizen. You’ve narrowed it down quite a bit from earlier calls for any examples of government abuse of power. But I can still meet your requirements - the “no fly” lists. The government has created and distributed lists of people who it considers suspicious. There is no due process procedure to determine who gets added to the list or to take people off the list. The only information we have about who’s on the list is when somebody is occasionally excluded in a manner that draws public attention - and from some of these examples, we’ve seen the standards the government imposed are poor (among the people who were on the list are a United States Senator, a folk singer, and a pre-school child). And the list prevents people on it from flying, so it definitely affects their ability to travel. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/129 "2007-10-30T01:28:44Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] You’ve narrowed it down quite a bit from earlier calls for any examples of government abuse of power. But I can still meet your requirements - the “no fly” lists. The government has created and distributed lists of people who it considers suspicious. There is no due process procedure to determine who gets added to the list or to take people off the list. The only information we have about who’s on the list is when somebody is occasionally excluded in a manner that draws public attention - and from some of these examples, we’ve seen the standards the government imposed are poor (among the people who were on the list are a United States Senator, a folk singer, and a pre-school child). And the list prevents people on it from flying, so it definitely affects their ability to travel. [/QUOTE] I can see how easy it would be to get on that list. There are the aviation equivalent of train spotters. Train spotters will watch trains go by and log the engine types, number of engines, and number and type of cars in tow. Why they do this I don’t know but they’ve been around since the dawn of trains. Airplane spotters do the same thing. It would be easy to get on a list of suspicious air travelers for the sin of having a hobby. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/130 "2007-10-30T01:49:16Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Cite? [/QUOTE] I’m tired of doing your work in this and other threads. When you are willing to come back with an actual issue statement that we can discuss, I’ll be willing to re-engage this conversation. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/131 "2007-10-30T01:52:37Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] You’ve narrowed it down quite a bit from earlier calls for any examples of government abuse of power. [/quote] I’m not sure what you are talking about . . . can you give me a post number? > [@](#): > > But I can still meet your requirements - the “no fly” lists. The government has created and distributed lists of people who it considers suspicious. There is no due process procedure to determine who gets added to the list or to take people off the list. The only information we have about who’s on the list is when somebody is occasionally excluded in a manner that draws public attention - and from some of these examples, we’ve seen the standards the government imposed are poor (among the people who were on the list are a United States Senator, a folk singer, and a pre-school child). And the list prevents people on it from flying, so it definitely affects their ability to travel. Does the “no fly” list result from government tracking of peoples’ whereabouts? I’m not saying it doesn’t or that it does, I’m just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/132 "2007-10-30T01:56:57Z")
[QUOTE=Telemark] I’m tired of doing your work in this and other threads. When you are willing to come back with an actual issue statement that we can discuss, I’ll be willing to re-engage this conversation. [/QUOTE] Whatever. The fact is that you’re dead wrong. Many types of subpoenas can be issued without approval by a judge. For example, take a look at the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, Rule 45(a)(3): > [@](#): > > An attorney as officer of the court may also issue and sign a subpoena on behalf of . . . a court in which the attorney is authorized to practice . . . ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/133 "2007-10-30T02:11:55Z")
**brazil84,** you are ignoring multiple counterexamples, you demonstrate no understanding of the American idea of “liberty,” and you have repeatedly ignored questions put to you and clung to your assertions while demanding that people do your work for you. I have not lost interest in this debate; I have, however, lost interest in having it with you. You appear so convinced of your own position that you are unwilling even to consider others- you have demonstrated no willingness whatsoever to actually engage your fellow debaters. I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with the liberty interest and learn to appreciate nuance befoe continuing in this debate. That you gloss over or cannot understand the difference between active and passive surveillance, and that you have no conception of the checks and balances written into American government mean that you cannot have a reasoned debate. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/134 "2007-10-30T02:23:41Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup] **brazil84,** you are ignoring multiple counterexamples, you demonstrate no understanding of the American idea of “liberty,” and you have repeatedly ignored questions put to you and clung to your assertions while demanding that people do your work for you. [/quote] Which questions did I ignore? While it’s possible that I missed a few, it certainly wasn’t intentional. Same question about counterexamples. Earlier, you made the following statement about “liberty” > [@](#): > > Do you understand the concept of liberty? The privacy interest is an individual liberty, one which is guaranteed by the Constitution. I responded as follows: > [@](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? I would like to make sure we are on the same page as far as “liberty” goes. As far as I can tell, you have offered no cite at all for your claim. It looks to me as though you want me to do your work for you. > [@](#): > > You appear so convinced of your own position that you are unwilling even to consider others- you have demonstrated no willingness whatsoever to actually engage your fellow debaters. That’s not true. For example, other debaters decided to shift the debate to constitutional questions, and I engaged them on this issue. > [@](#): > > I would suggest that you familiarize yourself with the liberty interest and learn to appreciate nuance befoe continuing in this debate. Why not supply me with a cite? Anyway, let me ask you straight out: Do you think my background is somehow inadequate to discuss what interests are (or should be) protected by the U.S. Constitution? If so, please describe your background to me. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/135 "2007-10-30T02:39:49Z")
No, I don’t want you do do my work for me. I want YOU to familiarize yourself with the concept of “liberty” as encompassing the privacy interest, which is partially, but not entirely, the right of individuals to determine how much and what information about themselves is to be revealed to others. This right is most famously described in Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965). You may be familiar with the term “penumbras” as applied here. If you are not, I suggest you familiarize yourself. As to your background, I have no idea what your background is. What I am saying is that your demonstrated comprehension of Constitutional values is nonexistent. As far as my background, it is unimportant- what is important is that you are making bold, unsubstantiated assertions and defying others to come along with cites to disprove them. I’m not going to get into a pedigree pissing contest with you. Put forth an assertion. Back it up with cites or viable propositions. Your gut feeling is not a cite. Then we can debate. If you cannot do this, then stop cluttering the forum with posturing. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/136 "2007-10-30T02:50:30Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup] No, I don’t want you do do my work for me. I want YOU to familiarize yourself with the concept of “liberty” as encompassing the privacy interest, which is partially, but not entirely, the right of individuals to determine how much and what information about themselves is to be revealed to others. This right is most famously described in Griswold v. Connecticut, 381 U.S. 479 (1965). You may be familiar with the term “penumbras” as applied here. If you are not, I suggest you familiarize yourself. [/quote] I agree that according to some court decisions, the Constitution protects some privacy interests. I now understand what you mean when you talk about the “concept of liberty” However, as I said before, I doubt that a law along the lines of what the original poster proposed would be struck down as unconstitutional. > [@](#): > > What I am saying is that your demonstrated comprehension of Constitutional values is nonexistent. Perhaps it is you whose comprehension is poor. > [@](#): > > As far as my background, it is unimportant- what is important is that you are making bold, unsubstantiated assertions and defying others to come along with cites to disprove them. Name two. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/137 "2007-10-30T02:55:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Name two. Oh, good grief. :smack: Let’s start with your very own post. ONE: [QUOTE= brazil84] However, as I said before, I doubt that a law along the lines of what the original poster proposed would be struck down as unconstitutional. [/QUOTE] Cite. CITE. Don’t just say “I doubt it,” and expect others to back up or disprove your assertion. You’re DEBATING here- at least you’re supposed to be. I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/138 "2007-10-30T02:59:22Z")
I was just watching a TV show about the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping. She was found alive nine months after being kidnapped. With RFID technology she would have been home about 8 months and 29 days earlier. > **[Kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping)** > > Elizabeth Ann Smart was kidnapped at age fourteen on June 5, 2002, by Brian Mitchell from her home in the Federal Heights neighborhood of Salt Lake City, Utah. She was held captive by Mitchell and his wife, Wanda Barzee, on the outskirts of Salt Lake City, and later, in San Diego County, California. Her captivity lasted approximately nine months before she was discovered in Sandy, Utah, approximately 18 miles (29 km) from her home. > Smart was abducted from her home at knife-point by Mitchell, ... ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/139 "2007-10-30T03:04:08Z")
[QUOTE=Happy Scrappy Hero Pup] Cite. CITE. Don’t just say “I doubt it,” and expect others to back up or disprove your assertion. You’re DEBATING here- at least you’re supposed to be. [/quote] Sorry, but that wasn’t a “bold” assertion. I was very clear that I wasn’t certain. And I only asked for a cite from a poster who boldly claimed the opposite. Anyway, if you are such a constitutional scholar, maybe you could come up with a cite to back up your “bold” assertions? Have you made any? Is Griswold all you have to offer? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/140 "2007-10-30T03:04:50Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] I was just watching a TV show about the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping. She was found alive nine months after being kidnapped. With RFID technology she would have been home about 8 months and 29 days earlier. > **[Kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping)** > > The kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart occurred on June 5, 2002, when 14-year-old American girl Elizabeth Ann Smart was kidnapped from her home in Salt Lake City, Utah by Brian David Mitchell. Mitchell abducted Smart at knifepoint, from a bedroom shared with her younger sister Mary Katherine who pretended to be asleep out of fear. Mitchell, who claimed to be a religious preacher, was acquainted with the Smart family having worked for them as a handyman. Mitchell and his wife, Wanda Barzee, held Sma... [/QUOTE] Maybe the answer to that is for parents to have their children microchipped with an RFID if they choose. My main objection to all of this is the idea of it being required by the government. I have no problem with people choosing to use such technology for their own convenience, hopefully having been educated enough about possible consequences for them to make an informed decision. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379.md?page=8)