# All cars should be required to have E-Z Pass/RFID technology **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 28, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379 "2007-10-28T22:36:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/141 "2007-10-30T03:10:00Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] I was just watching a TV show about the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping. She was found alive nine months after being kidnapped. With RFID technology she would have been home about 8 months and 29 days earlier. > **[Kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elizabeth_Smart_kidnapping)** > > The kidnapping of Elizabeth Smart occurred on June 5, 2002, when 14-year-old American girl Elizabeth Ann Smart was kidnapped from her home in Salt Lake City, Utah by Brian David Mitchell. Mitchell abducted Smart at knifepoint, from a bedroom shared with her younger sister Mary Katherine who pretended to be asleep out of fear. Mitchell, who claimed to be a religious preacher, was acquainted with the Smart family having worked for them as a handyman. Mitchell and his wife, Wanda Barzee, held Sma... [/QUOTE] And maybe she wouldn’t have been kidnapped at all, if there was a government appointed nanny that followed her around everywhere. :dubious: LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/142 "2007-10-30T03:11:51Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Sorry, but that wasn’t a “bold” assertion. I was very clear that I wasn’t certain. And I only asked for a cite from a poster who boldly claimed the opposite. [/QUOTE] Excuse me, but you made your bold assertion first. You then requested that I offer case law to back up my opinion, but you hadn’t offered any yourself, and still haven’t done so. While I am not a lawyer, and therefore can’t cite relevant decisions, I have attempted to show you why your examples of situations that apparently are allowable (such as cameras photographing license plates at toll booths) are fundamentally different from the OP’s proposal. **Happy Scrappy’s** point is that you continue to ignore these arguments I and others have made, and apparently insist that the situations are the same, when it seems pretty clear that they are not. If you care to rebut those arguments, then this conversation might hold some interest for me, but as of right now, I’m getting rapidly bored with it. ---
**Author:** ![Plan\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Plan\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Plan_B)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/143 "2007-10-30T03:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=LilShieste] And maybe she wouldn’t have been kidnapped at all, if there was a government appointed nanny that followed her around everywhere. [/QUOTE] Again, there seems to be this inability to make subtle distinctions, like between an ant hill and Mt. Everest. There seems to be some concensus that we accept license plates, they could be monitored and recorded and the info could be archived, and RFID doesn’t do much more. And the same horrible police state types who somehow have been held in check by the courts and legislators and haven’t done much to screw us with warrants or wiretaps, also would not be able to screw us with RFID. Here’s my question to the people who oppose the plan: Could you name _any_ way in which you would give the government even .0000001% more power if it would make us safer? And remember, as I said in the OP, I’m pretty much a libertarian. I don’t like giving the government more power in general. And if we were talking about Venezuela or Cuba, I’d be against it. There I’d say let’s take our chances with the kidnappers and killers. But in an Anglo democracy, where there have been almost no cases of abuse - I’ve asked for cites, none have appeared - the bad cops just will not be able to hurt us with this tiny increase in information. And the ratio of benefit to risk is astronomical. ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/144 "2007-10-30T03:29:29Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Again, there seems to be this inability to make subtle distinctions, like between an ant hill and Mt. Everest. [/quote] You ain’t kidding. Especially when you go on to say: [QUOTE=Plan B] There seems to be some concensus that we accept license plates, they could be monitored and recorded and the info could be archived, and RFID doesn’t do much more. [/quote] Haven’t you seen the posts in this thread that explain the difference between the two? The RFID approach does _a lot_ more, and it has a lot more implications. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/145 "2007-10-30T03:47:45Z")
> [@](#): > > And remember, as I said in the OP, I’m pretty much a libertarian. I don’t like giving the government more power in general. And if we were talking about Venezuela or Cuba, I’d be against it. There I’d say let’s take our chances with the kidnappers and killers. But in an Anglo democracy, where there have been almost no cases of abuse - I’ve asked for cites, none have appeared - the bad cops just will not be able to hurt us with this tiny increase in information. And the ratio of benefit to risk is astronomical. Maybe you should go back and read the thread. Check out my post on no-fly lists. Then explain how a secret list that the government can put anybody on without any known restriction and use to forbid them to fly isn’t an abuse of power. You’ll want to use this as a warm-up because the main routine will involve warrantless wire-tapping, the suspension of habeus corpus, Guantanamo, Manzanar, Watergate, Iran-Contra, RICO, COINTELPRO, Nixon’s Enemy List, the CIA’s family jewels, the Indian Removal Act of 1830, and the Alien and Sedition Acts. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/146 "2007-10-30T05:05:31Z")
You do realize that RFID doesn’t work for tracking things? Even Wal-Mart is having serious problems with their in-store tracking systems. [http://management.silicon.com/itdirector/0,39024673,39119625,00.htm](http://management.silicon.com/itdirector/0,39024673,39119625,00.htm) Can’t detect 'em from more than 5 feet away, anyhow. Oh, and implanting them in animals can cause cancer. > **[Possible RFID-Cancer Link Rattles Market](https://www.technewsworld.com/story/possible-rfid-cancer-link-rattles-market-59295.html)** > > News that there may be a link between implanted RFID chips and cancer in mice and rats sent VeriChip shares plunging by as much as 14 percent on Tuesday. The company's troubles began over the weekend when results of three studies in the United States... ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/147 "2007-10-30T05:12:28Z")
IANAL so someone needs to explain why tracking your car on a PUBLIC street would be unreasonable? Cops do it all the time; following a suspicious person and running their plate. Is it the fact that they can track you without a suspicion? Well they can stop you and breathalyze you at a drunk-driving checkpoint without suspicion (as long as it’s random). The can follow you even if you are not breaking any laws. Is it the fact that they can track 100s, 1000s, or 1000000s of cars? Then it’s the magnitude that makes it illegal. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/148 "2007-10-30T06:59:48Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] … COINTELPRO, … the CIA’s family jewels, … [/QUOTE] [COINTELPRO](http://www.icdc.com/~paulwolf/cointelpro/cointel.htm), actually, **Final Report of the Select Committee to Study Governmental Operations with Respect to Intelligence Activities. United States Senate, 94th Congress, 2nd Session, April 26 (legislative day, April 14), 1976. [AKA “Church Committee Report”]’** and [**The CIA’s Family Jewels**](http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB222/index.htm). CMC+fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/149 "2007-10-30T08:08:48Z")
I’m familiar with the terms, Crow. That’s why I brought them up. Seriously, what’s your point? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/150 "2007-10-30T09:21:24Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Yep. I guess the irony didn’t come through in my posting. [/quote] “Irony” is not the term I would use. > [@](#): > > Nope, but I think it’s pretty likely that they prevented other fiascos. Now that’s an unproveable assertation, isn’t it? > [@](#): > > Look at it this way: Murder is illegal in 50 states. Do you think laws against murder prevent murder from taking place? Apparently not, as murders still occur. > [@](#): > > If murder were not illegal, do you think there would be more murders or the same number? And there’s no way to give this a factual answer. Either choice yields the possibility for someone to say, “Bullshit!” with no way to come to a definitive conclusion on the matter. > [@](#): > > I respectfully disagree. For example, I bet it was a lot more common in the days before videocameras for the police to beat the (_&)(_ out of people for no good reason. Again, this is unproveable, but I find it ironic that someone who’s apparently so untrusting of the police would think that enabling them to track your every movement was a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/151 "2007-10-30T09:33:27Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] Excuse me, but you made your bold assertion first. [/quote] As I’ve said again and again, I made it very clear that I was not certain. I simply said the following: > [@](#): > > Anyway, if a law were passed requiring all cars to have an EZ-Pass-like device, I doubt it would be held unconstitutional. When you asked me to explain my reasoning, I did so. My statement, and my defense of it, were perfectly reasonable. > [@](#): > > You then requested that I offer case law to back up my opinion, You are the one who made a “bold” statement. I asked you the following: > [@](#): > > Do you claim it would be an unconstitutional violation of peoples’ “liberty interests” to require such devices on cars? Your response: > [@](#): > > Yes. That is what I claim. You made that statement without any uncertainty. > [@](#): > > While I am not a lawyer, and therefore can’t cite relevant decisions, I have attempted to show you why your examples of situations that apparently are allowable (such as cameras photographing license plates at toll booths) are fundamentally different from the OP’s proposal. **Happy Scrappy’s** point is that you continue to ignore these arguments I and others have made, I didn’t ignore your arguments. I responded to them. True, I didn’t agree with them – but that’s what debating is all about. It doesn’t mean I am ignoring them. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/152 "2007-10-30T09:43:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Now that’s an unproveable assertation, isn’t it? In principle, it could be tested. Can I take it you are in favor of repealing these sorts of disclosure laws? > [@](#): > > And there’s no way to give this a factual answer. Either choice yields the possibility for someone to say, “Bullshit!” with no way to come to a definitive conclusion on the matter. One can use common sense. It seems pretty obvious to me that if murder were legal, there would be more murders. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/153 "2007-10-30T09:52:09Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] In principle, it could be tested. Can I take it you are in favor of repealing these sorts of disclosure laws? [/quote] Given that the majority of businesses find them to be onerous, and just because someone’s signed a piece of paper doesn’t mean that they’re telling the truth, or even paying attention to what their signing, yes, I am. I’m all for transparency in how a business conducts it’s affairs, but Sarbanes-Oxley doesn’t do that, and hinders the operation of businesses. And I _don’t_ need corporate transparency to the point where I know every time the CEO goes to take a dump. > [@](#): > > One can use common sense. It seems pretty obvious to me that if murder were legal, there would be more murders. Only if you start with the presumption that humans are predisposed to murder one another. That’s clearly **not** the case, since no sane person objects to murder being a crime. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/154 "2007-10-30T10:30:20Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] I’m familiar with the terms, Crow. That’s why I brought them up. Seriously, what’s your point? [/QUOTE] Links for the historically (and Google) challenged! But in a nutshell, ANYONE who thinks giving more power of this kind to the US government’s Executive branches, Federal, State, and Local, (with, checks and balances, and Congressional and Judicial oversight) is no threat to the legal and Constitutional rights of it’s citizens is either woefully or willfully uneducated about the actual history of how these programs have been, and are now continuing to be, used both illegally and unconstitutionally (even with, checks and balances, and Congressional and Judicial oversight). CMC+fnord! I was just getting to the end of the thread and saw the need to link to those very incidents, but you posted first, alls I had left was the links ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 10:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/155 "2007-10-30T10:46:31Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] In many cities, it happens regularly that parking enforcement people make out tickets incorrectly. I suspect that the tickets would have fewer errors if an EZ-Pass-like system were used. [/QUOTE] You want me to install a piece of equipment in my car so that a meter maid, who’s standing there, staring at the fucking thing, doesn’t dork up writing down the license plate number? You want to track my movements, provide a compelling reason. The fact that it might help solve specific crimes undertaken by dimwits who don’t disable the system, isn’t quite compelling enough for me. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/156 "2007-10-30T13:33:38Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] And remember, as I said in the OP, I’m pretty much a libertarian. I don’t like giving the government more power in general. And if we were talking about Venezuela or Cuba, I’d be against it. There I’d say let’s take our chances with the kidnappers and killers. But in an Anglo democracy, where there have been almost no cases of abuse - I’ve asked for cites, none have appeared - the bad cops just will not be able to hurt us with this tiny increase in information. And the ratio of benefit to risk is astronomical. [/QUOTE] I have to say, if you believe in giving the authorities the power and right to track the wearabouts of every driver in the US, at any time, without probable cause or a warrant, then you aren’t pretty much a libertarian. And just what would count as a cite for abuse? How many cites, for example, of evidence getting tossed because it was acquired illegally do you want? For a particularly serious case of recent police abuse, try [Tulia, TX.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulia) Or does that not count as abuse because the courts eventually figured it out. Or are you looking for specific types of abuse? Let me know. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/157 "2007-10-30T14:28:42Z")
[QUOTE=Plan B] Good point, and have you ever been abused by the state because of your license plate? If not, then what is it about RFID that scares you? [/QUOTE] Try speeding in the state of South Dakota with an out of state license plate. I lived there for one year and noticed that all but a few cars pulled over were out of state. I asked about this of the locals and they laughed and said that it was common knowledge that the state derived income from out of staters. Heck, When I lived in WY I noticed the same thing…except they had county identifiers on their plates. Given opportunity, it will be abused sooner or later. If you trade freedom for security you will get neither. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/158 "2007-10-30T14:40:22Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] As I’ve said again and again, I made it very clear that I was not certain. I simply said the following: When you asked me to explain my reasoning, I did so. My statement, and my defense of it, were perfectly reasonable. You are the one who made a “bold” statement. I asked you the following: Your response: You made that statement without any uncertainty. I didn’t ignore your arguments. I responded to them. True, I didn’t agree with them – but that’s what debating is all about. It doesn’t mean I am ignoring them. [/QUOTE] I’m not going to bother nesting all these quotes, so it’s going to be really tough for anyone else to follow this conversation. If what you are saying is that all you have to do around here to avoid defending your opinion with facts is to qualify your opinion with a statement indicating that you have no idea what you’re talking about, then you haven’t really picked up on the culture of the board. And, I don’t believe you have offered any argument to rebut explanations of why tagging a car with a license plate is not the same as tagging it with RFID technology. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/159 "2007-10-30T14:57:57Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Suppose that government agents follow somebody they consider suspicious in order to find out where he or she is going; whom he is meeting with; etc. Would you consider that spying too? [/QUOTE] It is getting harder and harder to take you seriously. What does following a criminal suspect have to do with tracking the movements of every car owner? Here’s my answer. About as much as picking an apple has to to with razing an orchard. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379/160 "2007-10-30T16:37:20Z")
What if cars were required to be outfitted with a transponder that identifies them as a car? For use with autopilot systems so I could let the computer drive me wherever I was going. Would that intrude upon civil liberties? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-cars-should-be-required-to-have-e-z-pass-rfid-technology/424379.md?page=9)