# All hail the conquering hero: Bush in Baghdad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594 "2003-11-27T17:40:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/61 "2003-11-28T00:01:22Z")
That should have been "The war has nothing to do with protecting _me_ or anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/62 "2003-11-28T00:03:32Z")
My point was he made the troops happy. That, ALL By ITSELF, was a good thing. That is all. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/63 "2003-11-28T00:05:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*Thing is, the world is 98% non-American, and even more than that is non-US armed forces. The current US administration is the least popular in the world since Vietnam, and the Iraq war one of the most unpopular actions of US foreign policy ever. > > You do realise that the monumental news media of the world, of which there are none bigger nor more influential than yours, tell all of us what he’s up to, all the time. And a lot of the world resents US action in Iraq. To have the most powerful man on earth visit a conquered country, on a very major American holiday, looks to me like nothing more than triumphalism. > > I’m sure it plays different in the midwest, but that’s not the point, is it?\*\* What’s your point here? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/64 "2003-11-28T00:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*My point was he made the troops happy. > That, ALL By ITSELF, was a good thing. > That is all. \*\* Then the administration has to be aware of the effect it has outside the US, and the US armed forces specifically. There are many other things GWB could do to make the troops happy. Like visiting Iraq the day before, or the day after, Thanksgiving. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/65 "2003-11-28T00:07:01Z")
I have seen no evidence that he made troops happy. I know he’s made plenty of them dead, though. > [@](#): > > Oh, and President Bush is not killing his own troops, Iraqis are. Specious at best. ---
**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/66 "2003-11-28T00:11:00Z")
No one seems to have mentioned one salient fact: the Bush administration keeps telling us that things in Iraq aren’t going as badly as the “liberal media” tell us they are. If they’re right, why is it that the only way the President can visit Iraq is by using extreme cloak-and-dagger measures, by never leaving the airbase, and by clearing out within a couple of hours? Sure looks to me as if things in Iraq are perhaps a lot _worse_ than the media are reporting. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/67 "2003-11-28T00:15:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ammo52 \* > **Umm… if he’d greeted the troops totally _sans_ media coverage, how in the hell would you have ever known he’d done it?** Exactly. Thanks for seeing my point so clearly. If it was truly only meant for the troops, then why _should_ we know he’d done it? That being said, I agree with **John Mace** (and I think I said as much before he even pointed it out) that it would be pretty difficult to acheive this. However, it’s what I would have preferred. YMMV. Perhaps Bush could have said that the event was only meant for the soldiers, and asked the media to simply turn the cameras off for a little while, out of respect for that? Then again, perhaps I’m giving the media a little too much credit there. They’re not known for their respect. 😃 (No offense intended, I used to work in mass media… glad to be out of it, though) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ammo52 \* > **Pointing out the obvious bias of the “screechers” hardly constitiutes an ad hominem attack, btw.** Sorry to burst your fragile shell, but name-calling is pretty much the definition of _ad hominem_. You’re no longer addressing the argument, and thus invalidating your own. And you just did it again, nice work. Next time, just leave out the derogatory labels, mayhap? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ammo52 \* > **It’s just as easy to recognize the criticism levelled at him for having done so for what it really is-- unwarranted, hate-filled partisan sniping.** Please point out how anything I’ve said was (a) partisan, (b) hate-filled, or (c) sniping. Use of inflammatory language is what’s unwarranted. I believe I’ve made myself clear on why Bush’s little “visit” troubles me as it does. You’re welcome to disagree with what I’ve said, but exaggerating my words and then criticizing your own exaggerations is yet another fallacy. In short, ugly little strawman you’ve got going there. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ammo52 \* > **Some of you should just have the intellectual honesty to admit that you’d be thrown into an indignant fit no matter WHAT this President had done today.** And the strawman gets a little bigger, and even uglier. Actually, I would have been perfectly happy if he’d stayed home and had dinner with Laura and the girls. He wouldn’t even have entered my mind, to be _honest_. Perhaps you could have a little intellectual honesty yourself, and put down your broad black brush? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ammo52 \* > \*\*As others have noted: what’s the debate here? \*\* It’s pretty obvious, so I wonder why the question continues to be asked. Some here think that Bush’s visit was a thinly-veiled PR stunt, while others believe that it was a selfless act of a courageous President. There are points of agreement (I, for example, agree that any positive effect it had on the soldiers on the ground is a good thing), but larger points of difference. Related elements to the debate: The manipualtive tactics of “politics as usual,” the idea that any sitting President might have done something similar, and (though this hasn’t been discussed much yet) perhaps the part the media plays in overplaying something that should have been downplayed. If you don’t think there’s a debate, why have you gone to such lengths discussing it? Or were you just being dismissive again? Time to go baste again. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/68 "2003-11-28T00:15:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*There are many other things GWB could do to make the troops happy. Like visiting Iraq the day before, or the day after, Thanksgiving. \*\* Well, I guess I won’t visit my family for Christmas. I’ll wait until April. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/69 "2003-11-28T00:18:14Z")
\*\* Diogenes the Cynic\*\* > [@](#): > > What makes you think he made them happy? Hey\*\* Diogenes\*\*, quick! Run to your TV. See all those wonderful military men and women cheering and screaming at the top of their lungs? See? That’s what makes us think that they are happy. ---
**Author:** ![GoHeels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@GoHeels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoHeels)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/70 "2003-11-28T00:21:22Z")
**jjimm** > [@](#): > > To have the most powerful man on earth visit a conquered country, on a very major American holiday, looks to me like nothing more than **triumphalism** Considering the current state of affairs in Iraq, I wouldn’t use the word “triumphalism,” but I would call it **opportunistic**. I would also invite you to infer the negative connotation of the word. As **Michael Ellis** suggested, this kind of stuff gets pols elected, so I guess this is what you’ve gotta do. Nevertheless, I understand how furriners see these images and say “:wally” and then :smack:. I cringe, too. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/71 "2003-11-28T00:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*How could he possibly have done it **without** the media being involved? Are you asking him to censor the media? \*\* Well, [in a way](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N27209901.htm)… > [@](#): > > Bush found this the most crucial moment for keeping the trip secret, because now more people knew about it. He cautioned reporters against making cell phone calls. > > “I wasn’t sure whether or not people would be able to tell their loved ones: ‘I can’t see you on Thanksgiving. I can’t tell you why,’ I was worried about that but I was fully prepared to turn this baby around and come home.” > > A truncated press pool was taken, its members cautioned ahead of time that the trip was a national security secret and that if word got out, it could jeopardize the president. **Michael Ellis** , a) Bush’s family reside in Texas and the White House, not Baghdad; b) unless I’m sorely mistaken, your actions don’t have massive significance across the world. Imagine, pre-1776 King George III visiting the American Colonies, and chose Empire Day on which so to do. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/72 "2003-11-28T00:25:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > **Then the administration has to be aware of the effect it has outside the US, and the US armed forces specifically.** So the President of the US should base his every decision on what foreign opinion will be? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/73 "2003-11-28T00:27:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\* a) Bush’s family reside in Texas and the White House, not Baghdad; b) unless I’m sorely mistaken, your actions don’t have massive significance across the world. Imagine, pre-1776 King George III visiting the American Colonies, and chose Empire Day on which so to do. \*\* I still don’t get what you’re saying. What’s so damn wrong about Bush visiting American troops in Iraq on Thanksgiving. A national Holliday. ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/74 "2003-11-28T00:29:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GoHeels \* > \*\*As **Michael Ellis** suggested, this kind of stuff gets pols elected, so I guess this is what you’ve gotta do. Nevertheless, I understand how furriners see these images and say “:wally” and then :smack:. I cringe, too. \*\* No no no! I was saying that attitudes like **Dtc’s** “If you’re happy about this visit, you’re a stupid duped fool” are the kind of things that, if the Democrats want to win in 2004, they need to stop saying. People don’t like being told that they’re stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/75 "2003-11-28T00:30:26Z")
Seems Baby Bush learned this trick with someone else: > [@](#): > > President Bush’s father visited US troops in Saudi Arabia on Thanksgiving Day 1990, on the eve of the first US-led war in the Gulf. [BBC news](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3244620.stm) ``` Opportunistic or not... I found it wierd the speed of the visit. 2.5 hours only. One must conclude the situation in Iraq must be very bad if you need so much secrecy and speed in a presidential visit. Big shit if he "sacrificed" his Thanksgiving... he didn't even risk staying in Iraq a single day. Let the troops get shot at it... but don't risk poor Bush Jr. ``` ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/76 "2003-11-28T00:32:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Michael Ellis \* > \*\*So the President of the US should base his every decision on what foreign opinion will be? \*\* No, only the foreign policy ones - and in particular the ones about which a huge number of non-US people are extremely angry.quote] **A national Holliday.** [/quote] It’s not a national holiday in Iraq, which is a conquered nation. I’m getting the impression that “diplomacy” is something Bush-supporters are blind to. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/77 "2003-11-28T00:36:30Z")
F4OM jjimm > [@](#): > > Lads, you’re going to have to come up with something better than that every time your administration gets criticized. jjimm lad, next time try quoting me in context, kk? Appreciate that. 🙂 In case its sliped your mente, I’m not a big Bush supporter. Thanks for your support. -ZXT ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/78 "2003-11-28T00:37:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*My point was he made the troops happy. > That, ALL By ITSELF, was a good thing. > That is all. \*\* What a vanilla comment. Are we all happy with our nummy-nummies then? ---
**Author:** ![Michael\_Ellis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/977dab/32.png) [@Michael\_Ellis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Michael_Ellis)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/79 "2003-11-28T00:37:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > **It’s not a national holiday in Iraq, which is a conquered nation.** He wasn’t visiting Iraqis, he was visiting Americans. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/80 "2003-11-28T00:39:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*What a vanilla comment. Are we all happy with our nummy-nummies then? \*\* Are you making any sense? No. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594.md?page=5)