# All hail the conquering hero: Bush in Baghdad **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 27, 2003, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594 "2003-11-27T17:40:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Spavined\_Gelding](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@Spavined\_Gelding](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spavined_Gelding)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/141 "2003-11-28T05:23:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sam Stone \* > \*\*See, guys like Diogenes CLAIM to support the military, but get them just a littlle worked up, and this is the vile crap that rises to the surface. \*\* That’s because we all hate America, **Sam**. My ribbons were left at the Wall in DC. I take satisfaction from the performance of duty, I took pleasure in the company of the young men I served with, but I take no joy in seeing the country I love and served going down the path of, not to use too strong a term, imperial aggression. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/142 "2003-11-28T05:41:54Z")
Aggression against Saddam Hussein? Sounds like compalining about aggression to get Charles Manson. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/143 "2003-11-28T05:49:26Z")
Before I go to bed here I just want to add a couple of more things. I don’t think Bush’s action today as so much evil or malignant as it was just cynical, calculating and insincere. I know he has a lot of support in the military and I am frankly baffled as to why. I think that military culture has always been politically conservative and a lot of people in the military support Bush for reasons of political ideology rather than any personal merit. I can’t understand why he gets a pass on his own cowardice and desertion during Nam, though. I think a lot of them just hate liberals therfore they support Bush. I suppose the whole gays in the military thing had something to do with that mindset too. Some of the best people I’ve ever known have been in the military, also some of the worst. They’re not all morons but they’re not all Einsteins either. They’re like any other group of people with the same diversity of personalities, intelligence, morality, etc. I’m sorry so many of them seem to be so easily led by the war criminal in the White House but they don’t deserve to die for it and they don’t deserve to be away from their families today. Happy Thanksgiving to those GI’s in Iraq. I hope they all get home in one piece. I’d rather see Bush get reelected than to see another kid get shot. Good night and happy Thanksgiving everybody. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/144 "2003-11-28T06:47:03Z")
May I just remind **Sam Stone** and **Brutus** and all the unquestioning Bushistas that no uniformed soldier currently in Iraq will dare to express anything less than total support and endorsement of the President and his Cabinet and the current occupation – because everyone there knows what happened to the last guys who tried that. The statement “the troops love Bush” is meaningless if you omit the disclaimer “…because that’s the only acceptable response.” ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/145 "2003-11-28T06:47:25Z")
I am glad the president went to Iraq, even if it was for a very brief time, to spend some time with those soldiers. It was something that had to be done. What I dread is seeing a campaign commercial in a couple of months, a split screen with Bush in Baghdad on one side, and a clip of Howard Dean or some other Democrat in beads and sandals from 1971. Unfortuneately, Bush, or at least his political people, have this habit of mining these sorts of images for crass political benefits (as with the 9-11 fundraising photos or his air carrier antics). That’s why an event like this, which was obviously for the good of those troops there and the right thing to do, is still bound to strike a lot of people the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/146 "2003-11-28T06:57:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ElvisL1ves \* > Now, who really thinks the audience privileged to be in the same tent as Bush was not just as prescreened as the audiences for any of his other public appearances? Besides you, that is, Sam. Mr. Bush visited a unit. Do you have any evidence to suggest that this is not true, or that they removed members with inappropriate political views? How do you imagine they prescreened them? Did they select the unit with the best percentage of Bush fans? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/147 "2003-11-28T07:14:11Z")
From Diogenes the Cynic > [@](#): > > Hello? He went to the UN asking for money and troops. He’s been making sanctimonious statements about how other countries need to chip in money and send kids to die for his approval ratings. What rock have you been living under? You are right, oh wise one. I MUST be living under a rock. Sure didn’t sound like ‘begging’ to me, but you have shown me the light, Oh Master. To my limited mind, it sounded more like he was just covering his political bases, placating the left by appearing to ask the UN/EU, while basically doing what he wanted. To me, it didn’t appear that he was all that serious about asking, but I see now, from your razor sharp wit, that I was just wrong. I mean, look how he caved right in to the demands to put our troops under UN/EU command, that America give up control, etc etc…a sure sign he was desparate and ‘begging’. Oh…er. Well, I’m sure he will do that soon, since he is ‘begging’, right? Probably tomorrow or something… Now I see that, even though it didn’t LOOK like he was ‘begging’, he actually was…why? Well, because you say so, and I was under a rock. Thanks Alderbaran…woops, sorry. I meant, sorry Diogenes the Cynic. Oh…you’ve got a bit of foam at the corner of your mouth there. You might want to wipe that off, as it might give the wrong impression. This has GOT to be one of the funniest threads I’ve EVER seen. There is so much vitriol in this thread my screen is melting here. I now return you to your regularly scheduled Bush bashing fest. Please continue… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/148 "2003-11-28T07:20:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*My point was he made the troops happy. > That, ALL By ITSELF, was a good thing. > That is all. \*\* I’m sorry but you’re telling us the soldiers are made happy by Bush’s visit? Horsefeathers. They may appreciate it as a gesture, but they’ll be _happy_ when they get to go home and be with their families where nobody is shooting at them. Until then, I don’t think they’re happy. But as a gesture, it’s pretty much win-win. a) It’s free, happy sound bites and news clips. b) Can you imagine what the hounds would say if he _didn’t_ show up?? ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/149 "2003-11-28T07:49:20Z")
I think it was cool as hell, and this is coming from a guy who’s going to vote for _anyone_ other than George W. Bush in the next election, assuming someone doesn’t burn the Capitol before then. It has a sort of a John Ford quality to it. It doesn’t change my opinion of the fellow’s policy and execution of his job, but it does make me chuckle. Incidentally, judging from the radio clips I heard (I’ve not yet watched TV today), I heard more than a few “huahs” out of the crowd. [Rangers lead the way](http://www.armyranger.com/mod.php?mod=userpage&page_id=12). ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/150 "2003-11-28T08:05:26Z")
**xtisme** : are we in the Pit already? The “vitriol,” indeed – why, you read like a bar of mint soap. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > **DTC** , you are the one claiming that the President’s visit to our troops did not make them happy. Since you made the claim, prove it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tedster \* > When **Sam** said “you guys just don’t get it” he wasn’t kidding. One guy asks for a “cite” and now this. > > I spent a decade in the .mil, a few years doing VIP work, and was at Camp Bondsteel when the CINC arrived for turkey day in '99. > > Be assured that no “prescreening” takes place, not even with announced visits. That’s just not how the military works. Anyone who wants to see the VIP’s is free to do so, assuming they aren’t working, generally. By the same token, no-one is forced to go, either. It’s just amusing as hell to hear various “theories” by obvious “bush haters” on other threads on other boards, rabid conjecture that somehow the whole thing was staged. They don’t “get it” either. I’d like to bonk your heads together like Moe. You guys are working from indefensible positions. If a soldier doesn’t dig what he’s doing, or can’t stand the fact that he’s stuck in Tikrit or Ramstein or Pensacola, he simply does not go to VIP jerk-off functions. What if he went – what would he do, boo the VIP? In the US Armed Forces? His damned _job_ is at stake. Secondly, I’ve been dragged to a Tonight Show taping, everybody fimiliar with Jay Leno? **How many of you have heard people boo Jay Leno?** Thirdly, **Tedster** : must’ve been a whole different military, brother. I’d like to say that when you’re in the service, it’s not just a job, it’s your _life_. This life just so happens to be “ **keep your eye on the pay grade above you** , don’t make waves and _stay the FUCK in line_.” This life is about killing. This life is saying shit you don’t mean. This life is **singing** words you can’t possibly _imagine_ coming out of your mouth. This life is sometimes sticking to a Boot Camp routine because it’s the only thing keeping you from going insane. This life is 24 hours, sometimes for weeks on end. That’s why rapes happen on Liberty (Leave) and Tailhook becomes a national spectacle. I won’t comment on the rash of murders committed by our soldiers upon arriving stateside. **History buffs** : what’s the precedent on this? When’s the last time a sitting President – during the war – trod on War-Enemy turf? **For our soldiers, a VIP is like going to Chuck E. Cheese**. _This_ VIP, especially when he seemed to be forcing tears into his eyes, made the crowd **howl**. And it should have. It fucking should have four months ago and two months ago and it should again on Christmas. It should be known over there that our soldiers have the support of our country. But do they really? **For those of you old enough to remember, please allow me to throw out a slight hijack**. Has it ever occurred to you the possible reasons behind the poor stateside Homecoming a great many Viet Nam veterans received? Have you ever thought about the possible reasons why some GIs returning from Viet Nam were spat upon and rejected? In my name, my brothers and sisters are killing sovereign soldiers and innocent civilians out of My Country’s desire for Protection from Danger. I am killing people for a lie. Under those conditions, I am finding it increasingly difficult to support my troops. Today, six hundred of them seemed delighted to see President Bush – my Representative in the Field – and I’m torn about that. **Personally, my greatest hope is that the tent really sat 8,000.** ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/151 "2003-11-28T08:11:01Z")
**xtisme** : are we in the Pit already? The “vitriol,” indeed – why, you read like a bar of mint soap. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by milroyj \* > **DTC** , you are the one claiming that the President’s visit to our troops did not make them happy. Since you made the claim, prove it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tedster \* > When **Sam** said “you guys just don’t get it” he wasn’t kidding. One guy asks for a “cite” and now this. > > I spent a decade in the .mil, a few years doing VIP work, and was at Camp Bondsteel when the CINC arrived for turkey day in '99. > > Be assured that no “prescreening” takes place, not even with announced visits. That’s just not how the military works. Anyone who wants to see the VIP’s is free to do so, assuming they aren’t working, generally. By the same token, no-one is forced to go, either. It’s just amusing as hell to hear various “theories” by obvious “bush haters” on other threads on other boards, rabid conjecture that somehow the whole thing was staged. They don’t “get it” either. I’d like to bonk your heads together like Moe. You guys are working from indefensible positions. If a soldier doesn’t dig what he’s doing, or can’t stand the fact that he’s stuck in Tikrit or Ramstein or Pensacola, he simply does not go to VIP jerk-off functions. What if he went – what would he do, boo the VIP? In the US Armed Forces? His damned _job_ is at stake. Secondly, I’ve been dragged to a Tonight Show taping, everybody fimiliar with Jay Leno? **How many of you have heard people boo Jay Leno?** Thirdly, **Tedster** : must’ve been a whole different military, brother. I’d like to say that when you’re in the service, it’s not just a job, it’s your _life_. This life just so happens to be “ **keep your eye on the pay grade above you** , don’t make waves and _stay the FUCK in line_.” This life is about killing. This life is saying shit you don’t mean. This life is **singing** words you can’t possibly _imagine_ coming out of your mouth. This life is sometimes sticking to a Boot Camp routine because it’s the only thing keeping you from going insane. This life is 24 hours, sometimes for weeks on end. That’s why rapes happen on Liberty (Leave) and Tailhook becomes a national spectacle. I won’t comment on the rash of murders committed by our soldiers upon arriving stateside. **History buffs** : what’s the precedent on this? When’s the last time a sitting President – during the war – trod on War-Enemy turf? **For our soldiers, a VIP is like going to Chuck E. Cheese**. _This_ VIP, especially when he seemed to be forcing tears into his eyes, made the crowd **howl**. And it should have. It fucking should have four months ago and two months ago and it should again on Christmas. It should be known over there that our soldiers have the support of our country. But do they really? **For those of you old enough to remember, please allow me to throw out a slight hijack**. Has it ever occurred to you the possible reasons behind the poor stateside Homecoming a great many Viet Nam veterans received? Have you ever thought about the possible reasons why some GIs returning from Viet Nam were spat upon and rejected? In my name, my brothers and sisters are killing sovereign soldiers and innocent civilians out of My Country’s desire for Protection from Danger. I am killing people for a lie. Under those conditions, I am finding it increasingly difficult to support my troops. Today, six hundred of them seemed delighted to see President Bush – my Representative in the Field – and I’m torn about that. **Personally, my greatest hope is that the tent really sat 8,000.** ---
**Author:** ![Brutus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/91b2a8/32.png) [@Brutus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brutus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/152 "2003-11-28T10:31:28Z")
It was just as senseless the first time around. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/153 "2003-11-28T10:35:57Z")
Sorry you feel that way. The visit was a jingoistic publicity stunt, pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/154 "2003-11-28T11:41:02Z")
I don’t see any Bushites mentioning the very short stay time… I don’t see any Bushites mentioning the overdone secrecy and security I don’t see any Bushites mentioning that only 600 troops were in that tent. I don’t see any Bushites mentioning that the same stunt was pulled before by Daddy. Do you really think staying 2.5 hours in Iraq was brave at all ? If they accuse us “liberals” of hating anything Bush does… I want them justifying loving everything Bush does. As for historical comparisons… Napoleon very frequently would sit down around the fireplace with common troops and share meals with them. Ask them questions and make him the troop’s man. All calculated and cynical… but a great troop morale booster. Napoleon cared for his troops only as far as they served his purposes and ambitions. Do you Bushites really think Bush cares for the troops ? He wouldn’t be saying “Bring 'em on” if he did… ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/155 "2003-11-28T11:42:51Z")
Nah, he’d be saying “Please don’t hurt us!” ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/156 "2003-11-28T11:50:15Z")
As for the troops liking Bush… they aren’t exactly masters of political analysis are they ? Do they have an inkling of how uneffective the military operations IN IRAQ against worldwide terrorism are ? Do these grunts understand how badly muslem pride is hurt and how terrorism works ? The officers might have some ideas… but cannot speak out obviously. ``` This is one major reason I decided against every being a military officer myself. I cannot delude myself into following orders that are obviosly wrong or innefective. Being a critical and thoughtful has very little in common with being a low and medium level soldier or officer. Soldiers are tools of national politics and politicians... sometimes well used of course... and others badly so. So if Sam Stone thinks that troops "liking" Bush presents some quality to the Thief in Chief.... then who am I to accuse the blind of not liking the light ? I say the troops "opinions" shows nothing but military bravado and shortsightedness. The smart ones probably can see the quagmire they are in... and I pity them. Not much they can do about it. They all got into the military to serve their country... but are they really serving their countries best interest ? I doubt it. ``` ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/157 "2003-11-28T11:54:46Z")
Judging by your brilliant analysis, I would say that the troops might be a little more informed than you give them credit for. After all, they haven’t been fed a steady diet of left wing blame America propaganda for most of their lives. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/158 "2003-11-28T11:57:07Z")
They have been fed a steady diet of right wing “America is Great and Moral” propaganda for most of their lives instead ? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/159 "2003-11-28T12:03:48Z")
That’s not right wing. That’s left, center, and right. It’s not until you get to the fringes, the far right and far left, that people start getting irrational. Mainly because nothing invalidates their ideologies more than America’s success. So they have to show that the US is a bad nation, that we aren’t nearly as great as many say. Not that we shouldn’t look honestly at our faults. For example, Bush admitted that our support for dictators played a role in getting us into this mess in the first place. Of course, the same people that flog us for supporting dictators act equally outraged when we oppose them, which reveals that this is not the true source of their anger. AFter all, their own nations support dictators consistently, and are unapologetic about it. Attacking the hypocrisy of the US is a convenient way to divert attention from the greater faults of their own nations, who are not hypocritical, but something far worse: consistently supporting tyranny. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594/160 "2003-11-28T12:16:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adaher \* > \*\* …who are not hypocritical, but something far worse: consistently supporting tyranny. \*\* ``` Who is consistently supporting tyranny besides the US ? ``` I understand doing it for temporary and selfish reasons… the US should defend the US’s interest… as should every country. But no other country is claiming moral highground as much as the US is and still doing their old tricks. See Pakistan, former Soviet Republics, Russia, Saudi Arabia and other US “allies”. ``` You are basically claiming everyone is hypocritical but only the US is seeing the wrongs of their ways. I say the US is making a complete new set of wrongs instead. To add insult to injury the US is proposing itself as a world wide "benign" tyrant. Above any laws or interests but its own. Without multilateralism there can be no power balance of sorts... the Oval Office is not fit to "rule" the world anymore than the UN is to do so. ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-hail-the-conquering-hero-bush-in-baghdad/215594.md?page=9)