# 'All in the Family': Failed Political Theater **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 11, 2015, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520 "2015-01-11T02:44:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/41 "2015-01-13T16:37:46Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > God, when Meathead came into a little bit of money, I think from a small inheritance, and gave it to the McGovern campaign on the last day when it was a done deal, and got all snotty at Archie for suggesting that he pay some goddamned rent with it… man did I want to punch that tubby smug asshole in the face. Oh, I hated him in that episode. Another was when he was riding Archie as a near criminal about bringing home work equipment and petty theft from his job but then when caught defrauding the phone company he said something like “I’m a victim of the same mentality”. While I’ve never come to share Archie’s views on race and guns and religion and the greatness of Richard L. Nixon, I definitely have come to appreciate him more in some other ways, a key one being that he is entitled to respect in his own house, and Meathead was disrespectful. The brilliance of the show is that Mike v. Archie is not portrayed as G v E, and while both characters are very fully developed and relatable and likable and unlikable individuals they’re also symbolic of the generations, including the financial dependence of the hippie generation on the one it railed against and the bitterness and hard lessons of the Depression/WW2 (I hate the term “Greatest Generation”, but you know what I mean) against what they perceived as the softness and sloth of the younger generation, and the hypocrisies and virtues of each. Brilliant show that never jumped the shark imo. And disagree on Gloria being a dumb blonde: I thought she was one of the sharpest and most likable and “practical smarts” character on the show, a good synthesis of the best traits of her parents and husband. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/42 "2015-01-13T16:39:45Z")
I mean there are people that think Huck Finn is a racist screed, there are people that think Blazing Saddles is a racist comedy and laugh at the wrong parts. Does that mean they failed? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/43 "2015-01-13T16:44:56Z")
> [@Zsofia](#): > > God, when Meathead came into a little bit of money, I think from a small inheritance, and gave it to the McGovern campaign on the last day when it was a done deal, and got all snotty at Archie for suggesting that he pay some goddamned rent with it… man did I want to punch that tubby smug asshole in the face. I almost found Meathead more annoying than Archie, and sometimes more cringe inducing. I too found myself wanting to visit violence on Meathead, seemed like they went out of their way to make him unlikable. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/44 "2015-01-13T16:50:33Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > And disagree on Gloria being a dumb blonde: I thought she was one of the sharpest and most likable and “practical smarts” character on the show, a good synthesis of the best traits of her parents and husband. Watching the first seasons again on DVD recently, one of the things I noticed is how Gloria grows and matures. When we first meet her, she’s this curly-headed girl who says “Yeah,” a lot when Michael says something or echoes his political opinions. You can imagine that he’s the first guy she ever met who talked that way and his high-sounding ideas are part of what made him attractive to her. But she begins to develop ideas and opinions of her own that are sometimes contrary to his, especially where sex and gender roles are concerned. Mike, after all, could be a chauvinist pig. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/45 "2015-01-13T18:33:45Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Oh, I hated him in that episode. Another was when he was riding Archie as a near criminal about bringing home work equipment and petty theft from his job but then when caught defrauding the phone company he said something like “I’m a victim of the same mentality”. > > While I’ve never come to share Archie’s views on race and guns and religion and the greatness of Richard L. Nixon, I definitely have come to appreciate him more in some other ways, a key one being that he is entitled to respect in his own house, and Meathead was disrespectful. The brilliance of the show is that Mike v. Archie is not portrayed as G v E, and while both characters are very fully developed and relatable and likable and unlikable individuals they’re also symbolic of the generations, including the financial dependence of the hippie generation on the one it railed against and the bitterness and hard lessons of the Depression/WW2 (I hate the term “Greatest Generation”, but you know what I mean) against what they perceived as the softness and sloth of the younger generation, and the hypocrisies and virtues of each. > Brilliant show that never jumped the shark imo. > > And disagree on Gloria being a dumb blonde: I thought she was one of the sharpest and most likable and “practical smarts” character on the show, a good synthesis of the best traits of her parents and husband. The great thing about the show was that along with all the wonderful character development, it was very funny, especially in the early seasons. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/46 "2015-01-13T19:54:38Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Part of the failure was because most people are not introspective and rarely or never question their way of thinking. You cannot change their thinking with parody because the smart ones recognize you are making fun of them and dig in their heels, and the dumb ones, like my in-laws, think you are agreeing with them. Much of Archie’s fan base was made up of the latter, quoting him and laughing with him, not at him. Archie quickly became the flag carrier of the Not Nearly Silent Enough Majority, which was not Lear’s intent and why I believe _All in the Family_ was an epic fail in political theater. > > \< snip \> > > Lear tried that with Archie Bunker, but failed because Archie’s beliefs, which may have seemed ridiculous when put on paper, reflected too well what too many people believe to succeed. I disagree. It failed due to the fact that Archie, for all his unthinking biogtry, the only positive character on the show. Edith was a moron, Gloria didn’t do much but whine in an incredibly grating voice and everything negative Archie believed about Meathead was right. Who else was there to like? Archie was a hard-working man brought up with the values of his day who (granted) rarely overcame the bad aspects of those values but had positive stuff too. Meathead, in theory, the voice of the rational liberal early on was a lazy, shiftless lout sponging off his father-in-law and then having the unmitigated temerity to attack his host while mooching off him. Archie, for all his unthinking (and while destructive, non-mean spirited\*) bigotry–and he was a bigot, no doubt about it, had positive traits. Meathead had none. Lear’s big mistakes were A) making Archie just a cranky grandpa type. Yeah, he uses the “N” word, but he was brought up to think of the term as just what “those people” were called and not a big deal. You’d have to make him somewhat more racist and B) Giving us a positive liberal character to contrast(Lionel Jefferson filled that role nicely until he spun off into his own show). As it was, the message was “Decent people can be unthinkingly bigoted but don’t really mean any harm, but all liberals are douchebags” and that’s not what Lear intended \*There was an (early?) ep where someone tried to get Archie to join the Klan or a Klan analog and Archie was horrified and refused. Archie absolutely was a bigot and a racist in the “They’re different/inferior to us” way but not in a “Burn a cross on their lawn” type way. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/47 "2015-01-13T20:41:32Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > I disagree. > > It failed due to the fact that Archie, for all his unthinking biogtry, the only positive character on the show. Edith was a moron, Gloria didn’t do much but whine in an incredibly grating voice and everything negative Archie believed about Meathead was right. Who else was there to like? > > Archie was a hard-working man brought up with the values of his day who (granted) rarely overcame the bad aspects of those values but had positive stuff too. Meathead, in theory, the voice of the rational liberal early on was a lazy, shiftless lout sponging off his father-in-law and then having the unmitigated temerity to attack his host while mooching off him. > > Archie, for all his unthinking (and while destructive, non-mean spirited\*) bigotry–and he was a bigot, no doubt about it, had positive traits. Meathead had none. > > Lear’s big mistakes were A) making Archie just a cranky grandpa type. Yeah, he uses the “N” word, but he was brought up to think of the term as just what “those people” were called and not a big deal. You’d have to make him somewhat more racist and B) Giving us a positive liberal character to contrast(Lionel Jefferson filled that role nicely until he spun off into his own show). As it was, the message was “Decent people can be unthinkingly bigoted but don’t really mean any harm, but all liberals are douchebags” and that’s not what Lear intended > > \*There was an (early?) ep where someone tried to get Archie to join the Klan or a Klan analog and Archie was horrified and refused. Archie absolutely was a bigot and a racist in the “They’re different/inferior to us” way but not in a “Burn a cross on their lawn” type way. And I disagree with you. But the episode you are looking for is called “Archie and the KKK.” Of course back then they didn’t publicize what the episode title was so you had to wait for the reveal. Archie writes a letter to the editor about crime and the attitudes that are causing it or something like it. A couple of guys at the bar hear him talking about it and like the cut of his jib. They invite him to a meeting of like minded people called the Qweens council of Crusaders. When he gets to the meeting the first clue he doesn’t pick up on is that the sign says Kweens Kouncil of Krusaders. Then when the meeting begins the hoods go on and cue a classic Archie expression. I think the bid disparity between Mike and Archie is mostly because Carroll O’Connor acts rings around Rob Reiner (as did Jean Stapleton). Reiner has stated that he got a lot of his work because unlike other actors who looked like and belonged to the counter culture, he showed up on time, knew his lines and wasn’t high. Archie grew because of the nuanced performance. Mike never really did. Archie was a brilliant character study of a complex character. What I found surprising was how much trouble O’Connor had with the character from beginning to end. According to Lear they fought over just about every script. > **[Exclusive Norman Lear Memoir Excerpt: Throwdowns With Carroll O’Connor, Race...](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/norman-lear-memoir-excerpt-tv-history-736647/)** > > At 92, the legendary show creator opens up in his first memoir about his fantastical, boundary-changing life and creative struggles with some of his castmembers ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/48 "2015-01-13T21:32:08Z")
At times it was about how people’s beliefs often follow from what’s in their own best interest, whether they’ll admit this or not, and how real life can sometimes expose hypocrisy. In one episode (I may not have the details exactly right so feel free to correct me) Mike was a candidate for a teaching position at a University in another part of the country. Archie was not happy about this because his daughter would be moving away if Mike got the job. Eventually it came down to two candidates, Mike and another man, who happened to be black. The other man got the job, possibly because of affirmative action, and Mike ranted angrily about how he should have gotten the job because he was (at least in his mind) more qualified. But Archie was suddenly all for affirmative action and was throwing Mike’s past statements on the subject back at him. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/49 "2015-01-13T22:19:12Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I mean there are people that think Huck Finn is a racist screed, there are people that think Blazing Saddles is a racist comedy and laugh at the wrong parts. > > Does that mean they failed? This thread reminds me of my high school senior English class, way back when. It was the school’s honors English class, which meant, at least in theory that we were the smartest, most advanced, best prepared students in a fairly large suburban high school. Somewhere in the middle of the year, our assignment was Swift’s _A Modest Proposal_. And no one got it. The archetype of satire in the English language. Not. One. Single. Student. In. The. Class. Could Swift have possibly been a bad satirist? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/50 "2015-01-14T16:29:05Z")
I was surprised to learn (many years ago) that O’Connor, in spite of being a baby faced Irish-American, was from a very patrician background: his father was wealthy and his brothers were doctors and he had a car and driver taking him to private school when he was a boy. Makes his impersonation of Archie (and the “Shoe-Booty” episode, which he largely wrote and improvised) all the more impressive- he wasn’t drawing on his own experience for the blue collar background. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/51 "2015-01-14T16:36:36Z")
> [@kunilou](#): > > This thread reminds me of my high school senior English class, way back when. > > It was the school’s honors English class, which meant, at least in theory that we were the smartest, most advanced, best prepared students in a fairly large suburban high school. > > Somewhere in the middle of the year, our assignment was Swift’s _A Modest Proposal_. > > And no one got it. The archetype of satire in the English language. > > Not. One. Single. Student. In. The. Class. > > Could Swift have possibly been a bad satirist? And now, **Kunilou** is letting that analogy sink in: > ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/52 "2015-01-14T16:55:41Z")
Obligatory link: [THE ARCHIE BUNKER PANTOMIME SUICIDES](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVrET0k2TSw) ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/53 "2015-01-14T19:31:31Z")
[Richard Nixon](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon) sure missed the mark when he saw an AITF episode. He thought the show’s purpose was to glorify homosexuality. > [@](#): > > “Archie’s Guys.” Archie is sitting here with his hippie son-in-law, married to the screwball daughter. The son-in-law apparently goes both ways. This guy. He’s obviously queer–wears an ascot–but not offensively so. Very clever. Uses nice language. Shows pictures of his parents. And so Arch goes down to the bar. Sees his best friend, who used to play professional football. Virile, strong, this and that. Then the fairy comes into the bar. I don’t mind the homosexuality. I understand it. Nevertheless, goddamn, I don’t think you glorify it on public television, homosexuality, even more than you glorify whores. We all know we have weaknesses. But, goddammit, what do you think that does to kids? You know what happened to the Greeks! Homosexuality destroyed them. Sure, Aristotle was a homo. We all know that. So was Socrates. ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/54 "2015-01-14T19:43:04Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > [Richard Nixon](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon) sure missed the mark when he saw an AITF episode. He thought the show’s purpose was to glorify homosexuality. I remember reading that quote before and being puzzled about Mike supposedly being bisexual, until I recalled the episode referred to. A friend of Mike’s whom Archie perceived as effeminate visited the house, sparking off the topic of that week. Nixon, who was probably not a regular viewer, must have confused this character with the son-in-law. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/55 "2015-01-14T19:43:59Z")
That is hilarious. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/56 "2015-01-14T19:51:01Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But how many people who would agree with Colbert’s character watch his show? AITF was vastly more popular and I have heard many people quoting him approvingly while I’ve heard none do the same with Colbert who he has not spoken to directly; he is not Appointment TV for the Tea Party. I think this demonstrates why satire is rarely effective as a political tool. The satirist is too often playing for the people who agree with him and is ignored by those he is satirizing. Lear got the ear of those he mocked, but too well, succeeding commercially but failing politically. You’re forgetting those who are in between, who, in the U.S., are probably the majority. They don’t know _what_ they think. But they were curious about what this “Colbert thing” was all about so they checked it out. As I recall, according to polls, a lot of people only got interested in “news” after starting to view _Colbert_ or the _Daily Show_. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/57 "2015-01-14T22:57:57Z")
> [@Miss\_Mapp](#): > > I remember reading that quote before and being puzzled about Mike supposedly being bisexual, until I recalled the episode referred to. A friend of Mike’s whom Archie perceived as effeminate visited the house, sparking off the topic of that week. Nixon, who was probably not a regular viewer, must have confused this character with the son-in-law. I specifically talked about that episode in post #18. Nixon didn’t have to be a regular viewer. That episode was from the 1st season. Only the 5th episode to air. No one knew the characters well. And they chose the 5th episode of a show to put on the first openly gay character in a sitcom. Talk about ballsy. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/58 "2015-01-14T23:16:56Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > I specifically talked about that episode in post #18. Nixon didn’t have to be a regular viewer. That episode was from the 1st season. Only the 5th episode to air. No one knew the characters well. And they chose the 5th episode of a show to put on the first openly gay character in a sitcom. Talk about ballsy. Nobody ever accused Lear of being timid. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/59 "2015-01-14T23:36:47Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Nobody ever accused Lear of being timid. True enough. But none of his other shows have held up as well. Mostly I think because of the acting of Carroll O’Connor. Most of his other shows are pretty much unwatchable. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2015, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520/60 "2015-01-15T13:07:44Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > True enough. But none of his other shows have held up as well. Mostly I think because of the acting of Carroll O’Connor. Most of his other shows are pretty much unwatchable. I think Good Times comes closest. I agree that most of the rest are either hopelessly dated or kind of handled clumsily. There was a lot of anvil-dropping in One Day At A Time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-failed-political-theater/709520.md?page=4)