# All In The Family: Who was the better actor, O'Connor or Stapleton? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 5, 2015, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471 "2015-12-05T01:04:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/21 "2015-12-06T02:59:05Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Stapleton did her job well but the role of Edith was largely one dimensional. Both were good actors, O’Connor had many more opportunities to shine. For the most part I would agree with this, until the episode entitled [Edith’s 50th Birthday](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith's_50th_Birthday), during which Edith is the victim of an attempted rape in her home. How many dimensions did Stapleton bring to this episode? My god. More than 3. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/22 "2015-12-06T13:06:08Z")
> [@Nars\_Glinley](#): > > I definitely agree that neither actor IRL was anything like their character but when I saw them interviewed, I wasn’t surprised by O’Connor’s personality. Stapleton actually had me believing that she was an “Edith”. I have to agree. I mean, I knew intellectually that she was putting on a voice and that someone who was as much of a dingbat as Edith wouldn’t be able to play the part, but I still expected there to be a core of Edith in her, and I saw very little of it in the interviews I found on YouTube. O’Connor, on the other hand, does have that core. He’s a completely different person, but you can definitely feel the Archie in him. Still, the Archie role is harder, so I think he did the better job–but it’s hard to say for sure. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/23 "2015-12-06T13:09:52Z")
> [@Hail\_Ants](#): > > Jackie Gleason was originally offered the role of Archie by creator Norman Lear, but he turned it down. He didn’t want to return to television. > > I know this isn’t GD but I’d just like to say that Archie Bunker was **not** a racist, he was a bigot. He was all bark and no bite. He had a simplistic, insulated viewpoint that drove the things he said, but he never really acted on those views much. The word ‘racist’ today has severe implications that the Archie character did not at all live up to. Even if Gloria had dated a black guy there would have been some serious shouting, [but he would not have done this…](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbk0S48YZMc) That just sounds like a definitional issue. You define the term differently. I just define racism as “bigotry that is race-based.” So, if Archie is a bigot and he would have a problem with black people, then he’s a racist. And I’m pretty sure my definition is by far the most common. Perhaps it would help you if you realized that this is what people meant when they say the word, as I’ve seen you get into arguments about this before. Remember, how you define words is just a semantic argument, and has no inherent meaning. What matters is what you mean by the words you use, not if you use the right ones. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/24 "2015-12-06T14:13:06Z")
Stapleton may have been the better actor overall but for _All in the Family_, O’Connor was the best and drove the entire show. Jean was a pretty special character actress who was probably under utilized. She was easily the best part of the mostly forgotten movie _Michael_. She stole the movie in her small part. When she given the lines in All in the Family she was spectacular. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/25 "2015-12-06T15:26:23Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > For the most part I would agree with this, until the episode entitled [Edith’s 50th Birthday](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edith's_50th_Birthday), during which Edith is the victim of an attempted rape in her home. > > How many dimensions did Stapleton bring to this episode? My god. More than 3. > [@BigT](#): > > I have to agree. I mean, I knew intellectually that she was putting on a voice and that someone who was as much of a dingbat as Edith wouldn’t be able to play the part, but I still expected there to be a core of Edith in her, and I saw very little of it in the interviews I found on YouTube. There’s also an episode (from the Danielle Brisebois era) where Stapleton plays a double role; as Edith, and as Judith Klammerstadt, the fiancee of the local butcher who’d previously had a thing for Edith. It’s been ages since I’ve seen it, but I don’t recall a bit of the dingbat in Judith. (Researching this post has given me an excellent trivia question which I hope to remember and use at an appropriate time.) ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/26 "2015-12-06T15:44:29Z")
The Hail Ants/Robot Arm username combo makes me wanna go back to Canterbury Commons in Fallout 3 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/27 "2015-12-07T05:14:27Z")
> [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](#): > > You get my box of medals. I really wish I could remember the “areal reconnaissance” line to post in response to this, but I can’t remember how it goes. _ **Booker!** _ ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/28 "2015-12-07T11:29:36Z")
Remember the episode where a man attempts to rape Mrs. Bunker? I cannot think of a more difficult subject to deal with but Jean handled it well, even making it funny at times. Very well acted. ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2015, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/29 "2015-12-07T17:11:22Z")
Mentioned in post #21. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/30 "2015-12-08T01:44:17Z")
I couldn’t really say if either was a better actor, but O’Connor definitely got much more opportunities to showcase his acting range. Edith shifting from comic to overly dramatic was usually reserved only for _‘very special episodes’_. Interestingly, if you watch the first few episodes (maybe it was only the very first) Stapleton had not yet hit upon the high-pitched, whiny ‘dingbat’ voice for Edith, she just talks in a normal voice… ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/31 "2015-12-08T18:41:50Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > … he was ridiculous as the general in Kellys Heroes even though I love the film. Yes he was, but he played it so perfectly – a blowhard egomaniacal general who was only tenuously connected with reality. I loved him in that role. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/32 "2015-12-08T20:36:32Z")
Yeah, the first _few_ episodes were different. Archie was more intelligent and comparatively well spoken. But quite quickly it sunk into stereotype. Stapleton was far more consistent and had more depth. O’Connor too often reverted to little bits: eye rolls, arm waves, etc. Jean for the win. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/33 "2015-12-09T15:17:26Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Yeah, the first _few_ episodes were different. Archie was more intelligent and comparatively well spoken. But quite quickly it sunk into stereotype. > > Stapleton was far more consistent and had more depth. O’Connor too often reverted to little bits: eye rolls, arm waves, etc. Jean for the win. Edith was without a doubt the show’s ‘soul’. O’Connor had the flashy part, which usually means the easier one for an actor to perform. Edith’s good heart is what ultimately held everything together. In reference to what I mentioned above, about Archie being all bark and no bite, Edith would never have married, let alone stayed with, a man who was actually an incorrigible racist. Also, once Stapleton left and it became _Archie Bunker’s Place_, it was a totally different (and rather pointless and lame) series… ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/34 "2015-12-09T15:23:48Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Yeah, the first _few_ episodes were different. Archie was more intelligent and comparatively well spoken. But quite quickly it sunk into stereotype. > > Stapleton was far more consistent and had more depth. O’Connor too often reverted to little bits: eye rolls, arm waves, etc. Jean for the win. [Archie committing mock suicide](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKwdRHovYok) while Edith nattered on about something was a recurring bit in the show and a genius bit it was. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/35 "2015-12-09T15:47:10Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > [Archie committing mock suicide](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKwdRHovYok) while Edith nattered on about something was a recurring bit in the show and a genius bit it was. Yes it was. He was a gifted physical comic. In Norman Lear’s recent memoir (btw, he’s of amazing “mind and body” for a guy in his 90s) he discusses his love-hate relationship with O’Connor. He gives him full credit for Archie becoming an icon, but Carroll O’Connor was very difficult to work with and had strong opinions on everything about Archie and the scripts and was prone to tantrums. I think Stapleton was more professional. (Like many gifted comic actors she was always deadly serious in interviews.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimballkid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b5a626/32.png) [@Kimballkid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimballkid)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/36 "2015-12-09T16:18:16Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Yeah, the first _few_ episodes were different. Archie was more intelligent and comparatively well spoken. But quite quickly it sunk into stereotype. Why do sitcoms keep doing this to their characters? Radar on _MASH_, Jake and Alan (somewhat) on _Two and a Half Men_. I’m sure there are more I can’t think of now. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/37 "2015-12-09T17:07:59Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > Yeah, the first _few_ episodes were different. Archie was more intelligent and comparatively well spoken. Edith was more intelligent, acerbic, and wore pants. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/38 "2015-12-09T17:12:23Z")
> [@Kimballkid](#): > > Why do sitcoms keep doing this to their characters? Radar on _MASH_, Jake and Alan (somewhat) on _Two and a Half Men_. I’m sure there are more I can’t think of now. They don’t want to have to re-establish characters in every episode. It doesn’t have to result in characters eventually reaching the point of self-parody, but it happens that way a lot. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/39 "2015-12-09T22:37:52Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > They don’t want to have to re-establish characters in every episode. It doesn’t have to result in characters eventually reaching the point of self-parody, but it happens that way a lot. I don’t think that’s what we’re talking about. E.g., Kelly Bundy on _Married With Children_ was a reasonably average intelligent girl at first. But then they dumbed down the character to a ridiculous level. Apparently the writers drifted towards wanting a generic dumb blonde in the show for easy, cheap jokes. Once writers see that audiences like a particular type of joke for a character, they go full tilt on that aspect. But for _AitF_, the transition for Archie to a full on “dem” and “dose” character just took a few episodes. That was probably a choice by O’Connor and/or Lear. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2015, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471/40 "2015-12-09T23:32:33Z")
No, that is exactly what we are talking about. They feel around for a bit til they find a variation of that character that works. Over time, that character gets pared down to grotesque exaggerations of the characteristics that made her work in the first place. Kelly Bundy and Ralph Malph are two particularly egrdgious examples. It is a form of shorthand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-in-the-family-who-was-the-better-actor-oconnor-or-stapleton/739471.md?page=3)