# All NASA astronauts must become pilots **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 2, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904 "2020-04-02T19:06:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/1 "2020-04-02T19:06:01Z")
Makes sense in case the pilot(s) of the spacecraft gets sick or dies. They use a T-38 which is also a trainer for the Air Force. [NASA - T-38s Soar as Spaceflight Trainers](https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/shuttle/flyout/t38flyout.html) ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/2 "2020-04-02T19:31:35Z")
1. That article is 9 years old. 2. There is no way ANY Mission Specialist with however many hours in a T-38 is going to land a Shuttle. 3. We don’t use shuttles anymore. 4. the Russians don’t fly their own craft either. Which is the only way anyone is getting into space in the near future. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/3 "2020-04-02T19:31:56Z")
My ‘lottery dream’ plane is a T-38. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/4 "2020-04-02T19:50:29Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > 1. That article is 9 years old. > 2. There is no way ANY Mission Specialist with however many hours in a T-38 is going to land a Shuttle. > 3. We don’t use shuttles anymore. > 4. the Russians don’t fly their own craft either. Which is the only way anyone is getting into space in the near future. anything in the article no longer true ? I think it’s well known shuttles were retired in 2011. BTW NASA is planning to put US Astronauts into space on a Spacex rocket next month. I guess that’s the near future. And they are going back to ocean splashdowns. [https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/world/nasa-spacex-crew-dragon-launch-scn/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/world/nasa-spacex-crew-dragon-launch-scn/index.html) I assume NASA thinks all astronauts being pilots is a good idea . ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/5 "2020-04-02T20:15:15Z")
These are the current requirements to be a NASA astronaut: > [@](#): > > - Be a U.S. citizen > - Possess a master’s degree\* in a STEM field, including engineering, biological science, physical science, computer science or mathematics, from an accredited institution. > - Have at least two years of related professional experience obtained after degree completion or at least 1,000 hours pilot-in-command time on jet aircraft. > - Be able to pass the NASA long-duration flight astronaut physical. > **[Astronaut Requirements - NASA](https://www.nasa.gov/humans-in-space/astronauts/astronaut-requirements/)** > > Within the next few decades, humans could be leaving their footprints on Mars! But before that, NASA’s Artemis program will land the first woman and the next So, no, you don’t need to be a pilot to join the program. Whether they encourage you to fly after that I don’t know, but you don’t need to be one to start. ---
**Author:** ![installLSC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/54ee81/32.png) [@installLSC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/installLSC)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/6 "2020-04-02T20:15:19Z")
Didn’t NASA used to require astronauts to be pilots in the Apollo days? I vaguely remember an article about Sally Ride in Time magazine that claimed the reason there were no female astronauts until the 80s was that NASA only took astronauts from the fighter pilot program (and of course back then there were no female fighters in the Air Force). ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/7 "2020-04-02T20:22:30Z")
At first they pretty much only wanted test pilots and engineers and of course only men and they wanted at least a BA/BS degree. It is thought Chuck Yeager was not picked since he had no degree. They train anyone who is not already a pilot with the T 38. If you look at recent astronaut pictures many are standing in front of a T-38 For example: > **[Jonny Kim](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonny_Kim)** > > Jonathan Yong Kim (born 5 February 1984), also called Jonny Kim, is an American US Navy lieutenant commander (and former SEAL), physician, and NASA astronaut. > Born and raised in California, Kim enlisted in the United States Navy in the early 2000s before earning a Silver Star and his commission. While a US sailor, Kim also received his Bachelor of Arts (summa cum laude) in mathematics, his Doctor of Medicine, and an acceptance to NASA Astronaut Group 22 in 2017. He completed his astronaut t... > **[Kayla Barron](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayla_Barron)** > > Kayla Jane Barron (née Sax; born September 19, 1987) is an American submarine warfare officer, engineer and NASA astronaut. Barron was selected in June 2017 as a member of the NASA Astronaut Group 22, and later qualified as an astronaut in 2020. Barron took part in her first spaceflight, SpaceX Crew-3, as part of the crew of Expedition 66/67, which launched to the International Space Station on November 10, 2021. Before joining NASA, Barron was a submarine warfare officer and Flag Aide to t Ka... ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/8 "2020-04-02T20:48:26Z")
> [@installLSC](#): > > Didn’t NASA used to require astronauts to be pilots in the Apollo days? I vaguely remember an article about Sally Ride in Time magazine that claimed the reason there were no female astronauts until the 80s was that NASA only took astronauts from the fighter pilot program (and of course back then there were no female fighters in the Air Force). Group 1: active duty military test pilots. No women could apply, de facto since there were no active duty female test pilot. It also eliminated people like Neil Armstrong. Group 2: Test pilot experience. Practically a bar since there were hardly any. Group 3: Requirements for test pilot dropped. Only fighter experience required. There were a handful of women who met the requirements, and a handful of them applied. None made it Group 4. Scientist astronauts. Obviously many women qualified. A few applied. However the physical requirements were daunting, since they had to be fit enough to be taught to fly fighters as part of their training. Group 5: Same requirements as Group 3. More women applied and for the first time a couple got to the initial interview stage. Group 6: Group 6. Second group of scientist. Group 7. Military test pilots transferred to NASA after the military manned program was cancelled. Group 8: First group with women. Divided into pilots and mission specialists. Women were all in the later. How seriously NASA considered women before Group 8 is debatable. Michael Collins who was the Astronaut Office rep for some of the selections recalled being relieved that no women were selected. Which suggests that women’s applications were not pro forma, they did get consideration. However; he did say that he was shocked no black candidates were accepted, so how much open to all it actually was is debatable. Certainly pre Shuttle Slayton, Webb, Kraft and Shepard dominated selection and they would have resisted pressure to select a woman;since that was not exactly germane to going to the moon, they rejected many things for that reason. Still; the presence of errrr non technical concerns cannot be understated. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/9 "2020-04-02T20:48:30Z")
Your link partially explains it: “Just as they would during a shuttle launch and landing, the astronaut in the front seat of the T-38 handles the flying and the mission specialist in the back seat passes on important information, talks to the control towers and takes care of aspects of navigation.” There are three types of astronauts. First there are the two types of permanent, career astronauts: Pilot Astronauts and Mission Specialists. Pilot astronauts spend 15 hours a month piloting the T-38 to maintain currency and proficiency. Mission Specialists are non-pilots who spend 4 hours per month in the _back seat_ of the T-38. They don’t fly it. The third type of astronaut is a Payload Specialist. They are not career astronauts, and only fly one or two missions. They are experts in their particular field of study who receive only the minimum required training to operate in space and as part of the team. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/10 "2020-04-02T21:01:19Z")
Payload specialists were discontinued after the _Colombia_ disaster. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/11 "2020-04-02T21:04:31Z")
One of my grad school professors was an astronaut. He was working at Lockheed at the time, and on the team making a solar-physics experiment. At some point, his boss told the team “Bad news-- It looks like one of you is going to have to go up with it”. He didn’t consider that to be bad news. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/12 "2020-04-02T22:42:00Z")
A few astronauts never went to space , one of them quit because he could not fly the T-38 only with instruments. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/13 "2020-04-02T23:35:53Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > A few astronauts never went to space , one of them quit because he could not fly the T-38 only with instruments. Who is that? The [list of astronauts](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_astronauts_by_year_of_selection) doesn’t specifically call anyone out for that reason. It does call out 4 who died in T-38 crashes. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2020, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/14 "2020-04-02T23:40:09Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Group 4. Scientist astronauts. Obviously many women qualified. A few applied. However the physical requirements were daunting, since they had to be fit enough to be taught to fly fighters as part of their training. [Here’s an article](https://www.thespacereview.com/article/2199/1) about the flight training of one of the scientist / astronauts who eventually went to the moon. This was in the Apollo days when they all had to be pilots. They took this guy, a geologist, and sent him through the Air Force training program. Zero to hero! ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2020, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/15 "2020-04-03T00:45:57Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > A few astronauts never went to space , one of them quit because he could not fly the T-38 only with instruments. This is the guy who could not fly the T-38 on instruments > **[Anthony Llewellyn](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Llewellyn)** > > John Anthony Llewellyn (22 April 1933 – 2 July 2013) was a Welsh-born American chemist, a former NASA astronaut candidate, and a NOAA aquanaut. > Llewellyn was born in Cardiff, Wales, and graduated from Cardiff High School in 1949. He received his BSc degree from University College, Cardiff in 1955 and went on to achieve his PhD degree in chemistry in 1958. He married Valerie Mya Davies-Jones, and they had three children. > After the award of his doctorate, Llewellyn moved to Ottawa, Ontario, Ca... ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2022, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/16 "2022-09-28T23:42:48Z")
Friend of mine FIL was going to be on an Apollo mission but his mission was cut . I think Apollo 18 Partly due to budget and also people lost interest ---
**Author:** ![GWF\_Hefel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/898d66/32.png) [@GWF\_Hefel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GWF_Hefel)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2022, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/17 "2022-09-29T05:01:06Z")
This guy was in the same group as Llewellyn: > **[Brian O'Leary](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_O%27Leary)** > > Brian Todd O'Leary (January 27, 1940 – July 28, 2011) was an American scientist, author, and NASA astronaut. He was part of NASA Astronaut Group 6, a group of scientist-astronauts chosen with the intention of training for the Apollo Applications Program. > O'Leary was born and raised in Boston, Massachusetts on January 27, 1940. He decided to become an astronaut after visiting Washington, D.C. as a teenager. On December 1, 1983, O'Leary was married to Delores Marie Lefkowitz, also known as De... He quit within a year. I remember him being quoted at the time as saying “flying’s not my cup of tea.” I remember thinking (at age 10), “What is your problem?!?” ---
**Author:** ![Limmin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f04885/32.png) [@Limmin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Limmin)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2022, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/18 "2022-09-30T23:35:19Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > One of my grad school professors was an astronaut. He was working at Lockheed at the time, and on the team making a solar-physics experiment. At some point, his boss told the team “Bad news-- It looks like one of you is going to have to go up with it”. He didn’t consider that to be bad news. A bit of a zombie reply, but the news is recent to me: I just learned that one of my colleagues at Purdue is apparently going to go up on a suborbital flight, funded by NASA, with Virgin Galactic–after they’ve had 13 successful flights. Apparently they’re currently at 4. So it might be a while. But he’ll get to run his microgravity experiment (as brief as it is) himself. I don’t know if he’s a pilot–and it’s not clear if he’ll technically be considered an astronaut. However, there are astronaut portraits all over the building (Armstrong Hall) including two recent ones who flew with Virgin Galactic… ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/19 "2022-10-01T00:20:44Z")
One could argue that you are an astronaut if and only if you’ve been awarded a [United States Astronaut Badge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Astronaut_Badge). 30 people have the [Commercial Astronaut](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commercial_astronaut) badge at the moment. But due to the likely massive increase in the number of people that qualify, I have the feeling that the criteria may tighten–possibly to the point where only orbital flight matters, which would exclude Blue Origin and Virgin Galactic. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2022, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904/20 "2022-10-01T00:30:42Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I have the feeling that the criteria may tighten Filling a seat on some flight is no qualification. They have to certify that you have the Right Stuff. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-nasa-astronauts-must-become-pilots/850904.md?page=2)