# "All-Out Civil War in Iraq: Could It Be a Good Thing?" (Fox News) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 24, 2006, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997 "2006-02-24T23:40:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/21 "2006-02-25T14:00:30Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Or, “I want to post inflammatory shit without being expected to defend it.” > > Coward. Yada, yada, yada. I have a long and noble history of defending my positions against the likes of you. It’s just that sometimes I have an opinion or observation I want to express…usually based on something I’ve suddenly come across…and I know people will be expecting me to battle it out for three days and I may not have the time; so rather than disappoint them, I try to let it be known that I may not be around to argue the point (or more likely, defend against obfuscatory semantics) in such a way as they might expect. As for “inflammatory shit”, I thought my original post to this thread was rather observational and conversational and not inflammatory at all. Not that it matters, but I wasn’t in the slightest of a confrontational state of mind when I posted it; I merely wanted to point out that Mid-East strife is not necessarily due to border alignment after WWII. But of course to you and your ilk, anything seeking to deflect blame from America…even something perfectly obvious…is “inflammatory shit”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/22 "2006-02-25T14:01:39Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > well, I’ll be nice and just say misinformed. You’re too kind. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/23 "2006-02-25T14:03:11Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Or, “I want to post inflammatory shit without being expected to defend it.” > > Coward. The _modus operandi_… nay, the _raison d’être_ of **Starving for Attention**. I’d say more but I have to go now. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/24 "2006-02-25T14:08:36Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > The point is, in most regions of the world, peace reigns among neighboring nations. Regardless of how many times countries such as France and England have been at war, no current conflict is taking place wherein one country is determined to conquer the other and force it to accept the ways of life of the aggressor country. France and Italy are not engaged in such a conflict; Germany and Sweden are not; Mexico, Chili and Argentina are not; etc., etc.,…virtually all over the globe. Even the nations of Africa aren’t nearly as disputatious and committed to the absolute destruction of their neighbors as is the case in the Middle East. How about conflicts between non-neighboring nations? Do they get an exemption? If so, why? Because I dimly recall that a Western nation attacked a Middle Eastern nation, oh, just a few years ago, wasn’t it? 2003, I believe. And [part of it was about “forc[ing] it to accept the ways of life of the aggressor country.”](http://www.harpers.org/BaghdadYearZero.html) > [@](#): > > But the point remains, these countries are acquiring nuclear weaponry Who wouldn’t, now that there’s no other guarantee that the U.S. won’t attack you just because they damned well feel like it? Conservatives used to be very big on the law of unintended consequences. And this is one that shouldn’t have been too hard to see coming. > [@](#): > > and in my opinion, unless some outside source imposes its will by dint of force to prevent it (and undoubtedly resulting in great anguish, hand-wringing and condemnation on the part of those who would claim that no such country has the right to do so) And now that our force is all tied down in Iraq, who exactly is in a position to do something about Iran’s nuclear program, or Pakistan’s actual nukes? Oopsie. More unintended (and easily foreseen) consequences. > [@](#): > > “kill 'em all and let God sort it out” is going to be the ultimate result – and we won’t be the ones who will do it; it’ll come from within the region itself. Sure. We just took the lid off of Pandora’s box. No harm, no foul, right? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/25 "2006-02-25T14:11:30Z")
**Hector** …long time, no see! How ya been?.. Still limpin’ along, I see. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/26 "2006-02-25T14:27:23Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > **Hector** …long time, no see! How ya been?.. > > Still limpin’ along, I see. > > 😃 I don’t know what you mean. I do wonder, though, weren’t you limited in time nearly 2 hours ago? It’s nice to see that you don’t think we should be to blame if Iraq descends into civil war. Of course, knowing you, Bush shouldn’t be to blame for a single thing. The good thing is that if… no, _when_ you once again paint yourself into an corner, you can play the liberal media card. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/27 "2006-02-25T14:31:01Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > It’s just that sometimes I have an opinion or observation I want to express…usually based on something I’ve suddenly come across…and I know people will be expecting me to battle it out for three days and I may not have the time; so rather than disappoint them, I try to let it be known that I may not be around to argue the point (or more likely, defend against obfuscatory semantics) in such a way as they might expect. Yeah, I recall your [trying to duck out of the Clothahump thread last week](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7107620&postcount=76) when people had the nerve of pointing out more holes in your BS than you had the time to defend. If you want to provide a link to a factual source we should consider, go ahead. But if you want to toss in an _opinion_, you should be willing to defend it, or at least admit you’re overmatched. > [@](#): > > As for “inflammatory shit”, I thought my original post to this thread was rather observational and conversational and not inflammatory at all. Not that it matters, but I wasn’t in the slightest of a confrontational state of mind when I posted it; I merely wanted to point out that Mid-East strife is not necessarily due to border alignment after WWII. Your state of mind doesn’t determine whether the content of your post is inflammatory. Regardless of the _tone_, the _opinion itself_ was one that was clearly going to start a fight. And you were saying from the get-go that you were going to drop that stinkbomb in, then leave. Coward. > [@](#): > > But of course to you and your ilk, anything seeking to deflect blame from America…even something perfectly obvious…is “inflammatory shit”. :rolleyes: I’ve had eyes rolled at me by better women and men than you. When a guy comes into a room and starts overturning furniture, thinking it’ll do some good, maybe he’s the one to blame for the chaos in the room. It should be obvious that, regardless of what silly labels you care to bring to the discussion (“blame America”), that maybe America, as the biggest actor in this drama, as the one who took by far the biggest and most unprecedented action, is the actor most responsible for the resulting turmoil? That _should_ be common fucking sense. It’s no different from if you’ve got a company that’s getting by, but not doing that great, and you bring in a turnaround artist who changes everything the company is doing, at which point it goes down the tubes, then you and the turnaround artist are the ones to blame. This is a general concept that’s got nothing to do with America, except as a clear for-instance. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/28 "2006-02-25T14:32:45Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > We just took the lid off of Pandora’s box. No harm, no foul, right? :rolleyes: I would absolutely gurarantee you that if we never so much as lifted a finger in that region, they would still be at each other’s throats and the threat to the region from nuclear weaponry would be just as strong as it is now. It may have taken them a little longer to get there; but then who’s to say?..without western intervention over the last few decades they might very well have gotten there already. And now I’m afraid, I must bid you adieu: Good night, John boy…Good night, **Zoe** ; Good night, **Firefly** ; Good night, **Hector**. Oops…oh, shit! It’s morning! Okay then…Good morning, all. And on preview, you’re right, **Hector** : I should have bailed long ago; I just hate to let misrepresentation lie. However, I’m rectifying that situation now. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/29 "2006-02-25T14:34:27Z")
Uh…representation(_s_) lie…etc. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/30 "2006-02-25T14:38:21Z")
**SA** , first of all there were/are no WMD in Iraq. Stop pushing that old worn out lie. It was false then, it’s still false. Our own government has called the president on that several times. Second, if the middle east is bound and determined to destroy themselves, then we had no business “forcing freedom and democracy” on Iraq at gunpoint to begin with. Third, no one else is conducting wars of extermination??? How about Sudan, Niger (or is it Nigeria?). Remember Yugoslavia’s “ethnic cleansing” from not that long ago? The US enabled this civil war in Iraq. WE deposed their dictator, and left a power vacuum. Saddam was/is a scumbag. He was/is a killer and a sadistic fuck. But, as bad as he is, he kept a lid on things - the people were under his thumb. When we removed him and declared “Mission Accomplished”, we had no plan on what to do next - except enrich Keith Brown Root and Halliburton. We could have installed a military governor, like we appointed MacArthur in Japan or Patton in Germany, to keep things rolling, get a government started, and get things done - we didn’t. I think the excuse was called “catastrophic success”. So we fumbled around while no day-to-day administrative functions got done. Jobs went to American companies instead of the locals. The whole aftermath of our invasion was an invitation to disaster. So yes, this civil war was of our making. So, Iraqis will kill each other with glee, and in their free time will kill our soldiers. So what DID we accomplish? ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/31 "2006-02-25T14:44:06Z")
No, you just don’t get it, **fly**! If you want to regard my comments as overturning furniture, that’s you’re prerogative. But I’m damn sure not going to refrain from posting a reasonable observation simply because someone of your ilk is faunching at the bit to make something inflammatory out of it; and the fact that I know in advance that you’re going to do so isn’t going to prevent me from posting an observation that to me is simply a statement of fact and/or observation based on experience. What you propose is that I dare not say a word unless I have endless time to debate and split-hairs with anyone who comes along wanting to argue about it, and as a good liberal I’m sure you realize this would tend to infringe upon my rights of free speech and would, in effect, result in a form of censorship. Nice try, though! Later. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/32 "2006-02-25T14:51:08Z")
**Steve** , please…I’m trying to get out of here. Isn’t it obvious from my posts that I’m talking about the entire region and not just – or even primarily – Iraq? ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/33 "2006-02-25T14:59:47Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > someone of your ilk … reasonable observation … simply a statement of fact and/or observation based on experience … as a good liberal … free speech … censorship Bullshit. It has nothing to do with any ilks. I thought, one of the unspoken rules here at the SD was, when a person says something, they have something to back it up, or some logical thought behind it. Your reasonable observation has been disproved by the facts. Deal with it. Good liberals? Step off. Tossing the L word (liberal) will not get you off. It’s stupid to even think it will. I prefer the R word (realist). Or maybe the F word (fact based). Some people deal with facts, they don’t “create their own reality” - I believe the word for that is “delusional”. As for free speech and/or censorship, that is a lame ass heap of shit. Nobody can prevent you from saying anything, no matter how false or how stupid. That’s freedom of speech. However, nobody can prevent someone else from telling you it is lame ass and stupid. That’s also freedom of speech. You can’t have it both ways. Come around here spouting phony talking points, and you get spanked. That’s just how it is. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/34 "2006-02-25T15:31:58Z")
What a load of self-righteous hooey! How can an observation or prediction – given that it’s my actual observation and not one that I made up – be ‘phony’? I explained my thoughts several times and was perfectly clear about it. Nothing about what I said has been disproved and no cite was denied. However, one of these days I’m probably going to Pit the practice of those of your ilk (there’s that word again) to demand cites for uncitable information, which you guys just love to trot out to try to obfuscate and derail the arguments that you either don’t have the energy or logical standing to try to refute. I doubt seriously that the Reader had such things in mind when the right to call for cites was inaugurated. Facts and figures can be cited; observations based on life experience, predictions and opinions cannot. I’d like to find out once and for all just what the Straight Dope’s official position is on this practice of demanding cites for uncitable (as in no place exists…as reasonable men would define it…wherein the alleged information can be found, given that it doesn’t exist in the first place except in the mind of the poster) information. If it is to be the case that demands for cites of uncitable information are legitimate, is this then to become a message board in which only factual comments can be made? If so and opinion, judgement, observation, and beliefs are therefore out of bounds to all posters, I would wager that participation on this board would fall by about 98%. So, whaddya say, guy? Let’s knock off the phony high-horse declarations of having ‘prooved’ this or that ‘phony’ comment is wrong and simply call things what they are: i.e., differences of opinion – and have at it on that basis. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/35 "2006-02-25T15:40:20Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > Yada, yada, yada. I have a long and noble history of defending my positions against the likes of you. I believe you left out an “ig” there somewhere. > [@](#): > > But of course to you and your ilk, anything seeking to deflect blame from America…even something perfectly obvious…is “inflammatory shit”. Geez, maybe you have something there. How can we get to the bottom of this issue? I know; let’s ask **RTFirefly** what his real intentions are. Mr. **Firefly** , sir, is your entire purpose in posting to this thread to simply find an excuse to blame America for one problem or another in the world? Let’s see what he says. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/36 "2006-02-25T16:03:43Z")
I’d like to state for the record that, when Iraq dissolves into civil war, I and _the entire fucking world_ will hold the US government responsible.\* The Fox-style apologists will try to weasel out of it with spurious legal justifications by:[ul][li]Blaming the insurgents and terrorists[/li][li]spinning the details and discrediting the messengers, to obscure the big picture[/li][li]blaming the Iraqi people for their ingratitude and violent nature[/li][li]and as we’re seeing now by implication, they and people like **Starving Artist** (whose opinion seems to have moved from enthusiastic support to “observational and conversational”) will perform a Gallic shrug and say: “Hey, these people are savages: it was gonna happen anyway.”[/ul]But nobody outside the US is going to believe a fucking word they say. [/li] It’d be like the British blaming the Indians for the partition massacres. The US forces won’t necessarily be the people actually doing the fighting, but they sure as hell were the catalyst for this FUBAR situation, and their masters will bear the blame:[ul][li]The war was predicated on a farrago of lies. [/li][li]Hussein, for all his murderous acts on his citizens, Iran and Kuwait, did not threaten the US.[/li][li]He did not have WMD.[/li][li]He did not have anything to do with Al Qaeda.[/li][li]The humanitarian mission, if it ever existed, has failed.[/li][li]The aftermath was planned in blinkered idealism. [/li][li]The occupation has been riddled with incompetence and brutality.[/li][li]The experiment at democracy is on its last legs.[/li][li]And now civil war is about to start.[/ul]And Fox is debating whether this is a good thing or not.[/li] Hundreds of thousands of people are going to die in this. Take some fucking responsibility for your mistakes, assholes. I also predict that in decades and centuries to come, ‘Gulf War B’ will go down as one of the worst foreign policy disasters in American history. And if the nascent sectarian war spreads outside Iraq’s borders, positively _the_ worst. \*I’ll also give a few props to my Arschlecker of a Prime Minister. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/37 "2006-02-25T16:16:28Z")
That link doesn’t tell me what argument they made, only that they made an argument. I really couldn’t evaluate it without knowing the arguments that were made. To do otherwise would just be stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/38 "2006-02-25T16:19:17Z")
Here’s something from a guy who just got back: [http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200602240629.asp](http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200602240629.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/39 "2006-02-25T16:35:24Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Here’s something from a guy who just got back: > > [http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200602240629.asp](http://www.nationalreview.com/hanson/hanson200602240629.asp) Scanned it, and I have no idea what going to Iraq did to inform the piece. He seems to say the same things as many keyboard kommandos say without leaving their chair. Unheralded training of Iraqi troops and reconstruction efforst is going on. Only the ignorant think sectarian differences are significant. An undue focus on acts of terrrorism prevents the full picture of success. The insurgents or those fomenting civil war are losing. The release of prisoners by Hussein is the cause of the widespread lawlessness and violence. Most everyone agrees that the US knows what it is doing. Civil war is a faint ghost of a possibility. It’s all just more bullshit. The [Pentagon just released a report](http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/02/24/iraq.security/index.html?section=cnn_topstories) stating that the number of battle-ready Iraqi battalions fell from 1 to 0 (zero). Zero. “Everyone knows the US knows what it is doing”? What is [William F. Buckley](http://www.nationalreview.com/buckley/buckley200602241451.asp) looking at, when writing in the same publication as **Scylla’s** linked article that “One can’t doubt that the American objective in Iraq has failed.” He also says: > [@](#): > > One of these postulates, from the beginning, was that the Iraqi people, whatever their tribal differences, would suspend internal divisions in order to get on with life in a political structure that guaranteed them religious freedom. > > The accompanying postulate was that the invading American army would succeed in training Iraqi soldiers and policymkers to cope with insurgents bent on violence. > > This last did not happen. And the administration has, now, to cope with failure. I think that if you look around at a variety of sources, you will find that the only thing the linked article proves is that you can go to Iraq and still be a blind partisan shill. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2006, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997/40 "2006-02-25T16:35:38Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > That link doesn’t tell me what argument they made, only that they made an argument. The point of view that I’m working from is not the debating points made or countered, but that the _topic for debate_ was insane in the first place. If that _is_ deemed a reasonable starting point for a discussion in right-wing American discourse, then your country’s political axis has spun so widely from the rest of the world’s that I don’t know how the rest of the world can even deal with this country any more. To Godwinise here: if someone on the SDMB started a thread that read “The Holocaust: was it a good thing?”, how would we feel about the person who started it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-out-civil-war-in-iraq-could-it-be-a-good-thing-fox-news/345997.md?page=3)