# All Presidential candidates are dead--Constitutional question. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 8, 2020, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088 "2020-03-08T06:38:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/21 "2020-03-10T17:51:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Even if faithless elector laws are Constitutional (they probably aren’t)[…] Worth watching Colorado Department of State v. Baca, No. 19-518 before the Supreme Court this term. In 2016, the Colorado Secretary of State actually removed an elector after the elector cast a faithless vote in violation of his oath, voided the vote, and appointed a new elector who cast the “correct” vote. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/22 "2020-03-10T18:44:21Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > What was that Tom Clancy novel where the maddened Japanese pilot crashed his airliner into DC, wiping out the Prez and Veep, the Supes, and most of both houses? Suppose such-like happens just before the inauguration ceremony. Whichever outgoing cabinet member detailed as the Designated Survivor takes over, right? The election might as well never have occurred because there’s no new administration to install. Who picks up the pieces? It happens at the end of **Debt of Honor** and is the driver of the plot of **Executive Orders**. As for the rest - who knows? At that point we would be so far through the looking glass we’d be looking at the back of our necks. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/23 "2020-03-10T20:01:57Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > That’s extra-complicated if any of the eligible candidates are dead, because Congress has neglected to exercise its authority under Section 4 of the 22nd Amendment to [decide in advance](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volokh-conspiracy/wp/2016/04/25/congress-must-act-now-on-section-4-of-the-20th-amendment/) what to do if any of the eligible candidates in a House election are dead. Which means they would have to figure it out in the moment, during a time of maximum stress. You sure you don’t mean 20th Amendment? And considering Congress still has yet to deal with the law that makes all Federal crime committed in Idahoan Yellowstone unprosecutable, I think this has less of a priority. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/24 "2020-03-10T21:29:53Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > It happens at the end of **Debt of Honor** and is the driver of the plot of **Executive Orders**. Thanks. I’ve intentionally forgotten as much Tom Clancy as possible. I admire exactly one line he’s written: “If you don’t write it down, it never happened.” > [@](#): > > As for the rest - who knows? At that point we would be so far through the looking glass we’d be looking at the back of our necks. But in the modern world, it’s a real possibility. Virtually all US political officialdom gathers for a presidential inauguration, save a minor cabinet head in the chain of succession, the designated survivor (DS). A nasty little WMD vaporizes DC. The DS, safely stashed in Paducah, carries on for the prior administration. Thus: election? What election? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2020, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/25 "2020-03-10T23:35:32Z")
Under the law as it now stands, though, wouldn’t that new President’s term end immediately at noon, though, and with no successor to take over? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/26 "2020-03-11T17:40:57Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Under the law as it now stands, though, wouldn’t that new President’s term end immediately at noon, though, and with no successor to take over? Why? Does a cabinet minister’s term explicitly end at the moment of inauguration, or is that a matter of formality that the new president expects a resignation from the existing cabinet ministers? (again, unwritten rules, convention rather than law or constitution) IIRC a number of cabinet ministers and other senior officials are sometimes asked to stay on for a while. I assume if the cabinet member has not explicitly submitted a resignation, they are still there…? If your purpose is designated survivor, why would you resign effective the middle of your designatorship? Your replacement doesn’t actually arrive until congress approves them, I assume? ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/27 "2020-03-11T19:28:13Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Under the law as it now stands, though, wouldn’t that new President’s term end immediately at noon, though, and with no successor to take over? Amendment 20, Section 1. _The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January…_ That’s the Constitution. If the Prez, Veep, most cabinet heads, all of SCOTUS, and most of both houses of Congress, are nuked at 11:55 on 20 January, the terms of the President and Vice President have definitely ended because vaporized. In line of succession, the stashed cabinet secretary (Designated Survivor) becomes President automatically at 11:56. Does their term end at noon also? If they’re sworn in around 12:05, are they President for the next four years; or until a new Congress is elected; or when? Does current law deal with such a situation? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/28 "2020-03-11T19:46:06Z")
Cabinet members remain cabinet members until they resign or the current President dismisses them. But we’re not talking about a cabinet member at noon. We’re talking about a former cabinet member, who is now the President. And Presidential terms end automatically. I suppose that one could argue that, between 11:55, when the Secretary of Silly Walks succeeds to the Presidency, and 12:00, when the Presidential term ends, that individual is _both_ President and Secretary of Silly Walks. And that when that person’s Presidential term ends, e is immediately succeeded by the only surviving successor, the Secretary of Silly Walks, and so e ends up succeeding emself. And a person does not become President when they’re sworn in. The become President immediately either at noon on Inauguration Day, or when their predecessor dies or otherwise leaves office. They can’t use any of the powers of the Presidency before they’re sworn in, but they’re still President for that brief span of time. Also note that, while it’s become traditional for the swearing-in to be done by the Chief Justice during a big fancy public ceremony, that’s not necessary. They can be sworn in by anyone authorized by law to administer oaths, which is an awful lot of people, and most of the Presidents-by-succession have had quite informal swearing-ins. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/29 "2020-03-11T22:58:17Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Also note that, while it’s become traditional for the swearing-in to be done by the Chief Justice during a big fancy public ceremony, that’s not necessary. They can be sworn in by anyone authorized by law to administer oaths, which is an awful lot of people, and most of the Presidents-by-succession have had quite informal swearing-ins. IIRC when Harding died, Coolidge was awakened grumpily at his old family home in the middle of the night and administered the oath by his father, a Justice of the Peace. Beside JPs, magistrates, judges, and justices, I think a Notary Public is also possible but a bit of searching doesn’t specify. Congress has its own procedures to swear-in members. Whether any violate their oaths is another matter. Do we have a list of officers authorized to administer the Presidential oath? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2020, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/30 "2020-03-11T23:45:48Z")
Wouldn’t military officers also be qualified? ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/31 "2020-03-12T05:07:45Z")
If ships’ captains and ordained preachers can solemnize weddings, then them too. (I search for my ULC ordination certificate.) Okay, bring-em on! I’ll proclaim: “I now pronounce you Prez and Vice. You may kiss your ticket-mate.” If civilian officers are authorized, my BIL the police chief is available. Maybe the county clerk, too. But not the D.A. I mean, imagine being sworn in or married by the chief prosecutor. Sure, it has a kinky tang, but still… ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 12, 2020, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/32 "2020-03-12T18:00:49Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > If ships’ captains and ordained preachers can solemnize weddings, then them too. (I search for my ULC ordination certificate.) Okay, bring-em on! I’ll proclaim: “I now pronounce you Prez and Vice. You may kiss your ticket-mate.” If civilian officers are authorized, my BIL the police chief is available. Maybe the county clerk, too. But not the D.A. I mean, imagine being sworn in or married by the chief prosecutor. Sure, it has a kinky tang, but still… “I do solemnly swear to… wait! Who’s flying this plane!!!” ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/33 "2020-03-13T00:06:36Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > If ships’ captains and ordained preachers can solemnize weddings, then them too. (I search for my ULC ordination certificate.) Okay, bring-em on! I’ll proclaim: “I now pronounce you Prez and Vice. You may kiss your ticket-mate.” If civilian officers are authorized, my BIL the police chief is available. Maybe the county clerk, too. But not the D.A. I mean, imagine being sworn in or married by the chief prosecutor. Sure, it has a kinky tang, but still… It’s something of myth that ships’ captains can perform weddings. Here my cite—a Cecil Adam’s Straight Dope column from 1987: [https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/546/are-ships-captains-allowed-to-marry-people-at-sea/](https://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/546/are-ships-captains-allowed-to-marry-people-at-sea/) This isn’t the first time I have rebutted someone’s claim with one of Cecil’s columns. Apparently some Dopers haven’t actually read much of Cecil’s works. (I own all five of his books myself.) ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/34 "2020-03-13T00:30:33Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > This isn’t the first time I have rebutted someone’s claim with one of Cecil’s columns. Apparently some Dopers haven’t actually read much of Cecil’s works. (I own all five of his books myself.) Well, if you own all of the books yourself, how do you expect the rest of us to read them? ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/35 "2020-03-13T01:33:08Z")
Still not clear - can a state keep sending its electors back to revote until they “get it right”? Or like the election, is there one voting one time? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/36 "2020-03-13T01:52:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Under the law as it now stands, though, wouldn’t that new President’s term end immediately at noon, though, and with no successor to take over? Already addressed in post 20, above, but I guess I actually have to quote the text of [Article](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_Two_of_the_United_States_Constitution#Clause_6:_Vacancy_and_disability): > [@Article II](#): > > In case if the removal of the President from office, of of his death, resignation or inability to discharge the powers and duties of the said office, the same shall devolve on the Vice President, and the Congress may by law provide for the case of the removal, death, resignation or inability, bot of the President and the Vice-President, deflating what Officer shall then act as President, and **such Officer shall act accordingly, until the disability be removed, or a President shall be elected.** So if you don’t have a Prez or a Veep, the top officer in the line of succession holds office until a President is elected. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/37 "2020-03-13T02:08:10Z")
The officer doesn’t become President, but holds office until a President is elected. That wasn’t altered by the 25th, which just provides that the Veep does become Prez. The subsequent “officers” only hold office until the disability is removed, or a new Prez is elected. In the unusual case of both being dead, Congress could accelerate the election date, under Article II, Section 1, Clause 4, which gives Congress the power to set election dates. The Prez and Veep hold office for four years once elected, but there’s nothing in the Constitution that says the elections can only be held every four years. The first election happened to be held in 1788, and there’s been regular elections every four years since the, because there’s never been a case where the Prez and Veep are both dead. But if that happens, Congress could by statute provide for new elections as soon as possible. ETA: quote from Article II, Section 6, in previous post should say “declaring”, not “deflating”. Oops. Other typos too. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/38 "2020-03-13T03:46:42Z")
> [@dorvann](#): > > It’s something of myth that ships’ captains can perform weddings. I know. That’s why I preceded my quip with “if”. Anyone may be chosen by a couple (or more, for fun!) to solemnize their joining. It’s just not _legal_ till a clerk signs off. Our semi-pagan congregation’s “marryin’-buryin’ man” officiated. County clerk finalized us. The question remains open. Who is authorized to administer a presidential oath? PS: I recall humorous tales of an erotic ship line whose captains perform weddings (clothing optional) valid for the cruise duration. A three-hour San Francisco Bay tour would get pretty sweaty, especially with five-somes. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/39 "2020-03-13T04:15:41Z")
> [@RioRico](#): > > The question remains open. Who is authorized to administer a presidential oath? As mentioned up-thread, Calvin Coolidge was sworn in by his father, a state of Vermont notary public and justice of the peace. However, when he returned to Washington, Coolidge took the oath a second time, in front of a US District Court judge, because there was some question whether a state official could administer the federal oath of office. > **[First inauguration of Calvin Coolidge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_inauguration_of_Calvin_Coolidge)** > > The first inauguration of Calvin Coolidge as the 30th president of the United States was held on Friday, August 3, 1923, at the Coolidge Homestead in Plymouth Notch, Vermont, following the death of President Warren G. Harding the previous evening. The inauguration – the sixth non-scheduled, extraordinary inauguration to ever take place – marked the commencement of the first term (a partial term of 1 year, 213 days) of Calvin Coolidge as president. The presidential oath of office was administere... ---
**Author:** ![RioRico](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f04885/32.png) [@RioRico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RioRico)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2020, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088/40 "2020-03-13T08:25:35Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > As mentioned up-thread, Calvin Coolidge was sworn in by his father, a state of Vermont notary public and justice of the peace. That’s right. I brought it up in #29. > [@](#): > > However, when he returned to Washington, Coolidge took the oath a second time, in front of a US District Court judge, because there was some question whether a state official could administer the federal oath of office. > > [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First\_inauguration\_of\_Calvin\_Coolidge](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_inauguration_of_Calvin_Coolidge) Since constitution and legislation seem not to specify who’s authorized, “some question” could indeed be raised. Can any sworn federal official administer a federal oath? Does that include executive appointees and ambassadors approved by the Senate, or military officers, commissioned or even NCOs? When I joined the US Army, my federal oath was administered by a recruiting sergeant. Could she swear-in a new President? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-presidential-candidates-are-dead-constitutional-question/849088.md?page=3)