# All right, fellow Bush haters, listen up. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 20, 2006, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448 "2006-09-20T18:19:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/101 "2006-09-21T05:01:29Z")
> [@](#): > > **mrklutz** : He [John Mace] has also, however, often pointed out factual errors or unsupported claims in criticisms of the Bush administration by other posters. His usual reward is to get shouted down as a Bush apologist. He’s not. What I am proposing is that when someone like him points out what he perceives as a problem in an argument you make about the Bush administration, examine his point rationally and take it seriously. There is a difference in “pointing out a factual error,” “pointing out an unsupported claim,” and pointing out what _he_ perceives as a problem in an argument. They are three different things. With all due respect, what John perceives to be a problem may not be a problem at all and may not deserve to be taken seriously. Usually someone is around anyway to address illogical arguments and mistaken thinking anyway. I disagree with you about how John is “usually” responded to in the other cases. He doesn’t get “shouted down” when he points out facts. No one shouts anyone down here. He does sometimes get the label “Bush apologist” and _sometimes_ he deserves it. Regarding the Gallup Poll: > [@](#): > > **John Mace** : If I understand you correctly and you’re saying you think there is near universal agreement that the Iraq war was a mistake, you need to get out more. **John** , if you think a survey of Americans aged 18 and older reflects a “universal” opinion on the Iraq war, you might want to broaden your reading interests. **In what countries will you find a majority of the people supporting Bush’s decision to invade Iraq?** ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/102 "2006-09-21T05:15:46Z")
[QUOTE=mrklutz] … Do I believe the guy was tortured? Yes. Do you? Yes. Does **John**? Yes. … [/QUOTE] He certainly did not express such a belief, IMO. But you’re right, I don’t really think that **John Mace** doubts even one word of Arar’s story with even the smallest fiber of his being. He is a reasonable, intelligent person, and has seen the same information as the rest of us. There are cirmumstances where the evidence is so overwhelming that it becomes contingent upon the doubters to justify their doubt. Watching him carefully weigh his statements, desperately trying to continue to defend Bush, alongside his fellow Bush supporters who are not quite so subtle, calls to mind a [famous dialogue by Lewis Carroll](http://www.mathacademy.com/pr/prime/articles/carroll/index.asp): > [@](#): > > …Readers of Euclid will grant, I suppose, that Z follows logically from A and B, so that any one who accepts A and B as true, MUST accept Z as true?” > “Undoubtedly! The youngest child in a High School – as soon as High Schools are invented, which will not be till some two thousand years later – will grant THAT.” > “And if some reader had NOT yet accepted A and B as true, he might still accept the SEQUENCE as a VALID one, I suppose?” > “No doubt such a reader might exist. He might say, ‘I accept as true the Hypothetical Proposition that, if A and B be true, Z must be true; but I DON’T accept A and B as true.’ Such a reader would do wisely in abandoning Euclid, and taking to football.” > “And might there not ALSO be some reader who would say ‘I accept A and B as true, but I DON’T accept the Hypothetical’?” > “Certainly there might. HE, also, had better take to football.” > “And NEITHER of these readers,” the Tortoise continued, “is AS YET under any logical necessity to accept Z as true?” > “Quite so,” Achilles assented. > “Well, now, I want you to consider ME as a reader of the SECOND kind, and to force me, logically, to accept Z as true.” > “A tortoise playing football would be –” Achilles was beginning. > “– an anomaly, of course,” the Tortoise hastily interrupted. “Don’t wander from the point. Let’s have Z first, and football afterwards!” > “I’m to force you to accept Z, am I?” Achilles said musingly. “And your present position is that you accept A and B, but you DON’T accept the Hypothetical –” > “Let’s call it C,” said the Tortoise. > “– but you DON’T accept > > ``` > (C) If A and B are true, Z must be true.” > > ``` > > “That is my present position,” said the Tortoise. > “Then I must ask you to accept C.” > “I’ll do so,” said the Tortoise, “as soon as you’ve entered it in that notebook of yours. What else have you got in it?” > “Only a few memoranda,” said Achilles, nervously fluttering the leaves: “a few memoranda of – of the battles in which I have distinguished myself!” > “Plenty of blank leaves, I see!” the Tortoise cheerily remarked. “We shall need them ALL!” (Achilles shuddered.) “Now write as I dictate: – > > ``` > (A) Things that are equal to the same are equal to each other. > (B) The two sides of this Triangle are things that are equal to the same. > (C) If A and B are true, Z must be true. > (Z) The two sides of this Triangle are equal to each other. > > ``` > > “You should call it D, not Z,” said Achilles. “It comes NEXT to the other three. If you accept A and B and C, you MUST accept Z.” > “And why must I?” > “Because it follows LOGICALLY from them. If A and B and C are true, Z MUST be true. You can’t dispute THAT, I imagine?” > “If A and B and C are true, Z MUST be true,” the Tortoise thoughtfully repeated. “That’s ANOTHER Hypothetical, isn’t it? And, if I failed to see its truth, I might accept A and B and C, and STILL not accept Z, mightn’t I?”… ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/103 "2006-09-21T05:18:34Z")
> [@](#): > > **Quoting myself** : He does sometimes get the label “Bush apologist” and sometimes he deserves it. I’m retracting this for the moment. I’m reconsidering whether someone can be a parttime apologist… ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/104 "2006-09-21T05:18:52Z")
Man, reading this thread (and many others) just makes me want to avoid any and all political dealings save election day. In some other thread I tried to make a comparison to US politics being about which team was better while both were losing in a stadium crumbling before their eyes. That was met with a less than friendly response. Proving the climate of debate has gotten to the point where it isn’t debate. It isn’t. At least not on boards that embolden posters with a false sense of superiority in “fighting ignorance”. We’re all just people pounding away at our keyboards stating opinions and buying into the sense of being right because the motto of the particular board seems comforting. Every argument made here is the same argument made on thousands of boards each day. Boards of all stripes. Yes, it’s fun to post an opinion and argue other opinions, but too often it’s just an excercise in self-aggrandization. (sp?) When it got to the point of a mention of Bill Clinton inviting ridicule no matter the reference, I realized it wasn’t debate, just banner waving. Most of my political posts have been likely over the top. I never meant them to be, but the culture around here just drew me in. So this is my good-bye to almost anything involving politics on this board. It’s become anonymous written masturbation augmented by links to sketchy blogs and the occasional zinger. The worst part is the climate has expanded from websites to actual political parties and news rooms. If anyone here really has the answer to the problems we face, turn the fucking computer off and go do something about it. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/105 "2006-09-21T05:27:58Z")
_Don’t cry for me, Argenteeeeeena!.._ ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/106 "2006-09-21T05:34:21Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] … I’m reconsidering whether someone can be a parttime apologist… [/QUOTE] Even a man who’s pure of heart And says his prayers by night Can become an apologist! When the wolfsbane blooms And the full moon is bright… ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/107 "2006-09-21T05:42:05Z")
My nose bleeds whenever I take the high road. So I’ll just fap away here as usual, if that’s OK. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/108 "2006-09-21T05:46:47Z")
[QUOTE=duffer] So this is my good-bye to almost anything involving politics on this board. [/QUOTE] But…but… **duffer** …don’t you know that all that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing? ---
**Author:** ![mrklutz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ebca7d/32.png) [@mrklutz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrklutz)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/109 "2006-09-21T12:21:35Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] There is a difference in “pointing out a factual error,” “pointing out an unsupported claim,” and pointing out what _he_ perceives as a problem in an argument. They are three different things. With all due respect, what John perceives to be a problem may not be a problem at all and may not deserve to be taken seriously. Usually someone is around anyway to address illogical arguments and mistaken thinking anyway. [/quote] I will glady concede the difference between an error and a perceived error. Thank you for the clarification. I don’t see, though, where someone who calmly points out a perceived error needs to be dismissed every time by some posters. Not everyone does it, but some do. > [@](#): > > …No one shouts anyone down here… There I must disagree with you. I can’t construe the rabid, throwing-cat tone of some posters as anything but shouting down the people they are arguing with. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/110 "2006-09-21T13:06:28Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Boy, you got us there, **Sam**. We sure have been saying some nutty, nutty shit these last several years, huh? I wonder, is it still nutso and crazy after it proves true? Do we get a pass for being on the nose when you were full of garbanzos? [/QUOTE] That’s what kills me. All along, the Dems and liberals have been right about virtually everything they said about Bush: he HAS assaulted civil liberties, he DID lie about WMDs, Iraq IS a bogus war, they DID torture people, there WERE secret prisons, they DID use illegal wiretaps, they WERE taking bribes from Abramof … the list goes on and on and on and on … But there’s a certain breed of “moderate” who are so determined to maintain a balanced viewpoint that they can’t admit that the truth is piled high on the side of on faction while the other faction lacks any vestige of it. “The Dems are just as bd as the Pubs” they say. And they won’t give us any credit for having been right in almost every case, or look askance at the Pubs for being lying sacks of shit all along. Look, people at LEAST look at the source. Pay SOME attention to who’s been telling you nothing but bullshit and who’s been nothing but right. If you have such a vaunted concern for the truth, maybe you should pay SOME fucking attention to who’s providing it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/111 "2006-09-21T13:12:33Z")
[QUOTE=duffer] \So this is my good-bye to almost anything involving politics on this board. It’s become anonymous written masturbation augmented by links to sketchy blogs and the occasional zinger.\ [/quote] This is quite correct, but you don’t have to say goodbye entirely. The BoBBs (Brotherhood of Bush Bashers) provide a certain amount of reading amusement if it’s a slow night in MPSIMS or CS. [QUOTE=duffer] If anyone here really has the answer to the problems we face, turn the fucking computer off and go do something about it. [/QUOTE] There’s my main problem with them. They need to be spending all this time and energy identifying and promoting a candidate I and millions like me can vote for next time. I voted for Clinton twice, and I would have enjoyed the opportunity to vote against GWB in ‘02, but I enjoyed voting against Kerry even more. I would vote for GWB over Kerry again today. You guys need to get busy and find somebody middle of the road Americans can vote for, or else it’ll be Bush’s Designated Successor gettin’ our votes in '08. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/112 "2006-09-21T14:20:17Z")
[QUOTE=John Carter of Mars] There’s my main problem with them. They need to be spending all this time and energy identifying and promoting a candidate I and millions like me can vote for next time. [/quote] Agreed. However so much time is spend pointing out the inconsistencies of the Bush admin because their are so many of them. > [@](#): > > I voted for Clinton twice, and I would have enjoyed the opportunity to vote against GWB in '02, but I enjoyed voting against Kerry even more. I would vote for GWB over Kerry again today. Did I miss the 2002 presidential election? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/113 "2006-09-21T14:30:12Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] But there’s a certain breed of “moderate” who are so determined to maintain a balanced viewpoint… [/QUOTE] Concern trolls? There’re a lot of faux not-republicans out there today, hawking ‘moderate’ advice for the purpose of sowing discord among the enemies of the radical right. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/114 "2006-09-21T14:47:35Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Concern trolls? There’re a lot of faux not-republicans out there today, hawking ‘moderate’ advice for the purpose of sowing discord among the enemies of the radical right. [/QUOTE] Name them. You mean people on this board? Or pundits like Andrew Sullivan? What evidence do you have that such people are really agents of the radical right? How many of these people are there? Is John Mace the Bush Apologist one of them? If you can’t name one person you consider a “concern troll”, then perhaps the category does not exist. And if you can only come up with one or two names, then “a lot” might not be the best way to estimate the numbers of these cryptofascists. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/115 "2006-09-21T14:59:40Z")
[QUOTE=duffer] In some other thread I tried to make a comparison to US politics being about which team was better while both were losing in a stadium crumbling before their eyes. That was met with a less than friendly response. [/quote] Well, _yeah_. Because that’s what happens when you forget that the winning team is in charge of stadium upkeep. When Team D was at least partly involved in the running of things, the stadium was in reasonably good shape and was getting regular maintenance. Now that Team R is controlling everything, the stadium’s crumbling before our eyes. I agree with you that the way the game itself is played is stupid, but there ain’t no other game; this is unfortunately how we determine who takes care of the stadium. Team R is unquestionably superior at playing the game, but they suck at maintaining the stadium. There’s a decent body of evidence to support the proposition that this is because they don’t give a good goddamn about the stadium, but are far more interested in the welfare of a small but powerful group of their fans, who in turn make sure they are able to hire the best coaches and trainers and practice fields and equipment so they can continue winning the game and further aiding that group of fans. I also agree with you that the argument about which team is better is stupid, at least if the argument is about which team is better at maintaining the stadium. That’s transparently obvious. > [@](#): > > So this is my good-bye to almost anything involving politics on this board. Sayonara. > [@](#): > > If anyone here really has the answer to the problems we face, turn the fucking computer off and go do something about it. I’ve been doing what little I can, over the past few years, to try to get Team D in a better position on the field. As I’ve noted, they’re the ones who can be trusted with stadium upkeep. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/116 "2006-09-21T16:23:07Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] You need to get your PC looked at. The first question is: Check again at that link and tell me if you still see the same thing. [/QUOTE] No, I think it’s my brain that needs some looking after. Did as you asked and _still_ had the ABC question come up first – bewilderment ensued, thoughts of Dell computers demonic possesion came to mind. And _then_ I remembered this little “refresh” button in the second line of my Firefox broweser. Apologies are in order – it’s a site I visit on a fairly regular basis, and having a large hard-drive I keep my cached settings quite high. Anyhow, after hitting refresh, indeed, the ABC question I was quoting dropped down to third…while yours topped the list. Don’t I feel like a fuckin’ idiot. :o At any rate, I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/117 "2006-09-21T16:58:59Z")
[on the sidelines] Hiya, **duffer**. You played a great game. Nicely fought. Welcome to the lurkers corner. Now, you’re going to keep reading GD posts, right? OK. Now then, you’re going to read some real annoying bullshit from the usual crowd of Bush haters. It’ll take a while, but you’ll learn to ignore them. Just don’t respond. Nope. Not even once. No matter how much stupidity you see, don’t post. Nothing good can come of it. Maybe someday the board will shift back to some kind of balance, but for now the lunatics have taken over the asylum. It’s really not worth it. [/on the sidelines] ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/118 "2006-09-21T17:08:14Z")
[QUOTE=Debaser] Maybe someday the board will shift back to some kind of balance, but for now the lunatics have taken over the asylum. It’s really not worth it. [/QUOTE] This is what’s so funny. Well, not “funny” funny, more like tragic funny. “Balance”, in the brave new world of pubbiespeak, is the ability to be wrong nearly 100% of the time, but get an equal share of affirmation and respect. “Lunacy” is when others cry foul. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/119 "2006-09-21T17:44:39Z")
[QUOTE=John Carter of Mars] They need to be spending all this time and energy identifying and promoting a candidate I and millions like me can vote for next time. I voted for Clinton twice, and I would have enjoyed the opportunity to vote against GWB in ‘02, but I enjoyed voting against Kerry even more. I would vote for GWB over Kerry again today. You guys need to get busy and find somebody middle of the road Americans can vote for, or else it’ll be Bush’s Designated Successor gettin’ our votes in '08. [/QUOTE] And if the only way to win is to cater to the scum who voted in a monster and fool like Bush ( twice ! ), then what’s the point of “winning” ? If you want a monster in power, just vote for a Republican, not an “evil-lite” Democrat. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2006, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448/120 "2006-09-21T18:12:33Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] And if the only way to win is to cater to the scum who voted in a monster and fool like Bush ( twice ! ), then what’s the point of “winning” ? If you want a monster in power, just vote for a Republican, not an “evil-lite” Democrat. [/QUOTE] What about McCain? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-fellow-bush-haters-listen-up/373448.md?page=7)