All right, make me less ignorant. teach me all there is to know about politics, etc.

American conservatism and the Republicans:

The modern American conservative movement emerged largely as a reaction to the liberalism (as defined above) that prevailed from the Roosevelt Administration on. It really got its start in Barry Goldwater’s 1964 presidential campaign – which failed to elect Goldwater, but planted the organizational seeds of the later movement. You can read the whole story in The Right Nation: Conservative Power in America, by John Micklethwait and Adrian Wooldridge (New York: The Penguin Press, 2004). As those authors point out, “conservative” in post-Goldwater American usage meant something rather different than what it had meant to earlier generations (and still means in Europe):

Now, the above description is incisive but it glosses over the presence of several different and potentially conflicting trends within the modern conservative coalition. In general, we can identify the following currents on the “right” side of the map:

  1. Business conservatism: The people Bush famously called his “base.” Far and away the dominant force in the Republican Party (and in American society generally). Shades over into “neoliberalism” (see above), distinguished by matters of emphasis. These are the ones who believe, or at least proclaim, that whatever is good for [name of established business corporation in which you happen to have investments] is good for the country. Union-busting, good. Corporate welfare, good. Foreign military adventurism, acceptable if it provides business opportunities.

  2. Neoconservatism: The second most important force in the Republican Party, right now, and arguably the most important in the Administration. Dedicated to spreading the American versions of democracy and capitalism abroad, through military intervention where necessary. Remarkably, neoconservatism is a purely intellectual or “policy-wonk” movement with no mass base of support. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism_in_the_United_States.

  3. Religious-social traditionalist conversatism: IMO the third most important force in the Republican Party, now, and fighting hard to become number one. “Family values,” the Christian Coalition, and all that. Against gay marriage, for school prayer and teaching of “intelligent design”. This group does have a huge-grass roots support base that almost defines what we think of as the “red states” – but its supporters are mostly middle-class,working-class or poor, which potentially gives them very different material interests than the business conservatives. If they ever decide to split off from the Pubs and go their own way, they have a ready-made vehicle in the Constitution Party (formerly the U.S. Taxpayers Party) – http://www.constitution-party.net/.

  4. Paleoconservatism: Nativist, isolationist, anti-immigrant, populist. Not really a voice in the Republican Party at present, because they’re directly opposed to the Iraq War; also, because they’re economic populists and they seem to hate Wall Street as much as Washington. They want NAFTA abolished, immigration restricted, and tariffs imposed to protect the jobs of American workers. Paleocons are in the tradition of the old Populist Party and the interwar America First! movement. Ross Perot’s Reform Party was ideologically incoherent (and ultimately broke up for that among other reasons), but paleoconservatism was definitely one of its elements. Represented, at present, by Pat Buchanan and his America First Party (http://www.americafirstparty.org/).

  5. Libertarianism: Minimal-statists, in some cases verging on anarchism (although the anarchist tradition as such, in politics, is actually heavily influenced by Marxism). Libertarians are pro-market, which is not the same thing as pro-business. Opposed to welfare for poor people; opposed, for the same ideological reasons, to government bailouts of troubled businesses; opposed to American military intervention abroad. Want to decriminalize all “victimless crimes” such as prostitution and drug use. Like the neocons, this is mainly an intellectual movement with relatively little grass-roots presence, but it does have its own political party, the Libertarian Party (http://www.lp.org/), which is probably the single largest and best-organized third party on the American scene, at present. There’s also the Independence Party (one of the fragments that emerged from the breakup of the Reform Party), whose politics have been described as “moderate libertarian”: http://www.mnip.org/ It has no effective presence outside Minnesota at present, but there it did manage to get Jesse Ventura elected governor. Libertarians also have some independent influence in Washington, through institutions such as the Cato Foundation think-tank, which work hand-in-glove with the Republican ruling establishment.

  6. White supremacism/separatism: Self-explanatory. Now mostly marginal, at least in its overt form; it’s debatable how much influence racist thinking has in other conservative camps, such as the paleocons, or the immigration-restriction movement generally. (See this thread: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=310401.) And the modern rise of the Republican Party to majority status can be attributed in part to Nixon’s 1968 adoption of a “Southern Strategy” which targeted conservative Southern whites (most of them Democrats, up until then) who were still nursing resentment over the end of Jim Crow. But racism’s more extreme manifestations, such as the Klan and the Nazis, are definitely beyond the pale, now. The “militia” movements seem to have been in steep decline ever since the bombing of the Oklahoma City federal courthouse in 1995. They haven’t gone away – but, for the most part, organized white supremacists are so far out there that it would be against Board rules for me even to provide links to their websites.

Now, everything I wrote in posts #39 and #41 is about the American “political nation” – i.e., politicians, activists, political intellectuals and commentators – everybody who engages in politics, or tries to, in ways more active than just voting. When we look at the people, and their beliefs and values and assumptions, the picture breaks down somewhat differently. Around April/May 2005, the Pew Research Center for the People and the Press released the fourth version (since 1987) of its Political Typology of the American people: http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=943 (It was last updated in 1999.) Like the previous versions, it was based on surveys of 2,000 randomly selected persons. “Each of the typologies developed by the Pew Research Center has been designed to provide a more complete and detailed description of the political landscape, classifying people on the basis of a broad range of value orientations rather than simply on the basis of party identification or self-reported ideology.”

Some of these findings cast new light on the reasons for the current Republican hegemony in the White House and Congress.

Nine groupings are identified, three strongly Republican, three strongly Democrat, two independent or centrist, plus the non-participant Bystanders:
ENTERPRISERS
9% OF ADULT POPULATION
10% OF REGISTERED VOTERS
PARTY ID: 81% Republican, 18% Independent/No Preference, 1% Democrat (98% Rep/Lean Rep)
BASIC DESCRIPTION: As in 1994 and 1999, this extremely partisan Republican group’s politics are driven by a belief in the free enterprise system and social values that reflect a conservative agenda. Enterprisers are also the strongest backers of an assertive foreign policy, which includes nearly unanimous support for the war in Iraq and strong support for such anti-terrorism efforts as the Patriot Act.
SOCIAL CONSERVATIVES
11% OF ADULT POPULATION
13% OF REGISTERED VOTERS
PARTY ID: 82% Republican, 18% Independent/No Preference, 0% Democrat (97% Rep/Lean Rep)
BASIC DESCRIPTION: While supportive of an assertive foreign policy, this group is somewhat more religious than are Enterprisers. In policy terms, they break from the Enterprisers in their cynical views of business, modest support for environmental and other regulation, and strong anti-immigrant sentiment.
PRO-GOVERNMENT CONSERVATIVES
9% OF ADULT POPULATION
10% OF REGISTERED VOTERS
PARTY ID: 58% Republican, 40% Independent/No Preference, 2% Democrat (86% Rep/Lean Rep)
BASIC DESCRIPTION: Pro-Government Conservatives stand out for their strong religious faith and conservative views on many moral issues. They also express broad support for a social safety net, which sets them apart from other GOP groups. Pro-Government Conservatives are skeptical about the effectiveness of the marketplace, favoring government regulation to protect the public interest and government assistance for the needy. They supported George W. Bush by roughly five-to-one.
UPBEATS
11% OF ADULT POPULATION
13% OF REGISTERED VOTERS
PARTY ID: 56% Independent/No Preference, 39% Republican, 5% Democrat (73% Rep/Lean Rep)
BASIC DESCRIPTION: Upbeats express positive views about the economy, government and society. Satisfied with their own financial situation and the direction the nation is heading, these voters support George W. Bush’s leadership in economic matters more than on moral or foreign policy issues. Combining highly favorable views of government with equally positive views of business and the marketplace, Upbeats believe that success is in people’s own hands, and that businesses make a positive contribution to society. This group also has a very favorable view of immigrants.
DISAFFECTEDS
9% OF ADULT POPULATION
10% OF REGISTERED VOTERS
PARTY ID: 68% Independent/No Preference, 30% Republican, 2% Democrat (60% Rep/Lean Rep)
BASIC DESCRIPTION: Disaffecteds are deeply cynical about government and unsatisfied with both their own economic situation and the overall state of the nation. Under heavy financial pressure personally, this group is deeply concerned about immigration and environmental policies, particularly to the extent that they affect jobs. Alienated from politics, Disaffecteds have little interest in keeping up with news about politics and government, and few participated in the last election.
LIBERALS
17% OF GENERAL POPULATION
19% OF REGISTERED VOTERS
PARTY ID: 59% Democrat; 40% Independent/No Preference, 1% Republican (92% Dem/Lean Dem)
BASIC DESCRIPTION: This group has nearly doubled in proportion since 1999. Liberal Democrats now comprise the largest share of Democrats. They are the most opposed to an assertive foreign policy, the most secular, and take the most liberal views on social issues such as homosexuality, abortion, and censorship. They differ from other Democratic groups in that they are strongly pro-environment and pro-immigration.
CONSERVATIVE DEMOCRATS
14% OF ADULT POPULATION
15% OF REGISTERED VOTERS
PARTY ID: 89% Democrat, 11% Independent/No Preference, 0% Republican,(98% Dem/Lean Dem)
BASIC DESCRIPTION: Religious orientation and conservative views set this group apart from other Democratic-leaning groups on many social and political issues. Conservative Democrats’ views are moderate with respect to key policy issues such as foreign policy, regulation of the environment and the role of government in providing a social safety net. Their neutrality on assistance to the poor is linked, at least in part, to their belief in personal responsibility.
DISADVANTAGED DEMOCRATS
10% OF GENERAL POPULATION
10% OF REGISTERED VOTERS
PARTY ID: 84% Democrat; 16% Independent/No Preference, 0% Republican (99% Dem/Lean Dem)
BASIC DESCRIPTION: Least financially secure of all the groups, these voters are very anti-business, and strong supporters of government efforts to help the needy. Minorities account for a significant proportion of this group; nearly a third (32%) are black, roughly the same proportion as among Conservative Democrats. Levels of disapproval of George W. Bush job performance (91%) and candidate choice in 2004 (82% for Kerry) are comparable to those among Liberals.
BYSTANDERS
10% OF ADULT POPULATION
0% OF REGISTERED VOTERS
PARTY ID: 56% Independent/No Preference, 22% Republican, 22% Democrat
BASIC DESCRIPTION: These Americans choose not to participate in or pay attention to politics, or are not eligible to do so (non-citizens).
(Note the conspicuous absence of neoconservatives, socialists, libertarians – none, apparently, significant enough in popular support to form a grouping in this typology.)

Key findings of the new typology report include:

  • National security is now the key distinguishing issue between the two parties. Republicans and Republican-leaning voters favor an aggressive, militaristic foreign policy; Democrats favor diplomacy and are more likely to believe that the “war on terror” just breeds more hatred and more terrorism.

  • The Republicans are divided sharply on economic issues. Two of their three core constituencies (Social Conservatives and Pro-Government Conservatives) are skeptical of business and favor stronger government regulation of it. The Pro-Government Conservatives (but not the Social Conservatives) actually think government should do something to help the poor.

  • The Democrats are divided on moral values. The largest of their constituencies (Liberals) is highly secular but the next largest (Conservative Democrats) is very religious and socially conservative.

Note that the three core Democrat-leaning groups (Liberals, Conservative Democrats and Disadvantaged Democrats) account for 44% of registered voters. The Republican-leaning groups (Enterprisers, Social Conservatives, Pro-Government Conservatives) total only 33%. Yet the Republicans have been winning – because, at present, the two centrist or independent groups (Upbeats and Disaffecteds) are mostly voting Republican:

Does all that clear it up for ya, Idle? :slight_smile:

Idle Thoughts,

I particularly like

That is as masterful a summation of Leftist economic politics as I have ever seen.

Just a few points of clarification/expansion.

Conservative/right wing economics doesn’t usually oppose equality. George Bush for example is conservative but would never say he opposes equality, and I genuinely believe that he doesn’t. The difference between that position and Liberal/Leftist politics is that opposition to inequality is built-in to the Liberal political. So a Conservative Right winger like Bush might oppose inequality for personal moral reasons, but he could remain a true conservative and openly endorse what is effectively slave labour. There’s nothing inherently contradictory in being a slave-owning conservative. In contrast a Leftist Liberal like Kerry simply could not endorse inequality and still remain a Liberal. It’s inherent in the definition of a ‘true’ Liberal that they oppose inequality.

This is one of those important concepts that can often be hard to grasp. Politics isn’t black and white, where a person either supports apposition or opposes it… While all liberals or conservatives all share a certain set of core characteristics they also have many more non-core characteristics that aren’t shared. Thus a US Liberal may oppose inequality but at the same time they may support market deregulation because they feel that is one way of fighting inequality. And a conservative may support free enterprise but at the same time be an avid supporter of workers rights for personal reasons.

I guess the short of it is that while we can say that all liberals are opposed to social inequality it may be equally true that all conservatives are also opposed to it. The difference is that the conservatives are opposed to it for personal reasons, not because it’s part of what makes them conservatives. Similarly all conservatives endorse economic growth but it’s possible that all liberals also endorse that, but for personal reasons, not because it’s a defining feature of a liberal. You can’t say that endorsing inequality is an extreme right wing position, but you can say that endorsing inequality is never a conservative position. Similarly you can’t say that forcing people to live on collective farms is an extreme, leftist position, but you can say that it isnever a conservative position. I hope that’s not too confusing.
Capitalism and conservative/right wing politics are very closely linked, but they are not entirely synonymous. Capitalism is essentially a system where people are free to make money however they can, which is perfectly in tune with the conservative philosophy of every man for himself. However the original right wing were monarchists and not particularly dedicated capitalists by modern standards. They believed in a social heirarchy, right by birth and so forth. So while capitalism and conservatism are linked in the modern world one needn’t be a capitalist to be a conservative.

The difference between communism and socialism is almost impossible to define. One of the standard replies is that communism is an ideal that is to be strived for but can never be reached, whereas socialism is a working system of leftist/liberal principles. There never has been true communist nation, just as there has never been a true capitalist nation. All nations, including the US, are a blend of socialism and capitalism. But some countries are more clearly communist is principles than others. The US is a primarily capitalist nation with some socialist underpinnings. As you point out the US has social security, free healthcare and so forth which are clearly socialist/leftist in origin and intent. Cuba is a primarily communist nation with some capitalist underpinnings. Contemporary China or much of western Europe are more blurry and it’s hard to decide whether they are primarily capitalist or communist. So in reality all countries are a blend of left and right.

Are there any good things about living under Communism? Yeah, lots. Free health care, free education, guaranteed accomodation , a guaranteed job for life. In Eastern Europe under communism everyone was educated according to their level of ability through to PhD level if you were capable. And everyone knew they had a job to go to when they finished their education. Those are pretty major plusses, especially when things are tough economically. The general rule of thumb is that the poor are better off under communism in the bad times, and better off under capitalism the rest of the time.

But as you pointed out there is a major limitation that if someone doesn’t pull there weight what do you do? The Soviets believe din ‘re-education’ for such people, which essentially meant being ripped away from their families and imprisoned, beaten and/or brainwashed. That ensured a minimum work effort out of everyone. Unfortunately it also ensured the minimum work effort out of everyone. Nobody worked to capacity, nobody worked any harder than they absolutely had to because there was no reward for doing so.

There is no reason why a leftist can’t enjoy living in a democracy. A great many democracies are leftist. The just aren’t extreme leftist (IOW communist).

If you are on social security then liberal politics is probably the choice for you. You probably stand to lose the most from unbridled capitalism. However once again you should realise that most conservatives don’t actually oppose social security. Social security has been shown to be essential for a healthy economy, and economic growth is a major concern of conservative politics, so for purely selfish reasons conservatives will support some form of social security at least.

Yes there are a lot of parties on each side. They are not just varying degrees of economic political viewpoint, they also vary depending on focus. Greens for example typically focus on the environment and ‘wholistic’ (for want of a better word) aspects of leftism such as ‘community viewpoints’ and ‘global integrity’. So a green leftist may consider saving the whales to be important because it is important to global integrity, future of the children etc. People being underemployed is of less concern provided there is adequate social welfare. Unionists focus primarily on the conditions of the working person. A union leftist may be concerned that people are underemployed no matter how good welfare is, but environmental concerns are only of great interest if workers suburbs or housing projects don’t have enough parks or are too polluted, but saving the whales is of limited concern. A communist may be concerned that Bill Gates has too much money simply because Bill Gates has so much money, no matter what the provable direct impact on workers or the environment. All are leftists, al share similar concerns but all have a totally different idea of what is of importance.

Nazis are tricky to define at this stage. Although they call themselves national socialists that was as a deliberate dig at the Soviet Socialists. The USSR considered themselves International Socialists, part of the worldwide brotherhood of workers. To counter that appeal the German fascists adopted the name National Socialists, meaning they intended to look after only the German workers and everyone else could go to hell. The Nazis had a lot of socialist policies, as does most of western Europe today, but they weren’t strictly speaking socialists, they were fascists.

This introduces a whole other set of dimensions to politics: the dimensions of state control vs individual liberty and internationalism/nationalism/isolationism/globalism. Up to this point we have been concentrating primarily on economics, how money should be collected and spent by the state. But politics is just as much defined by how the state controls its citizens and how it reacts to its neighbours. But if you don’t mind we’ll leave that until you think you’ve got a reasonable handle on the economic dimension.

Well, in the beginning there was this bad guy, so these other guys had to dress up in constumes and party, and ride around on horses until he went away. Their leader became very famous, although today, due to inflation, he isn’t really worth all that much.

Anyway, 'round about a hundred years later, it turned out that those guys in costumes weren’t so bright after all, and a dude with a funny top hat had to rescue them. Of course, he didn’t really fix things that well either, and some other dudes had to come around a hundred years after that to fix what he left undone, but I’m getting ahead of myself.

Anyway, back in the land of bratwurst, some developments started going down, and we had to come clean up. Again. After that, everyone had had enough of open hostility, so they just went for the suppressed rage, leading to personality changes at home. A deep throat eventually led to the US government’s dismemberment, which amazingly kept going long enough to commit several crimes against humanity.

Which brings us to that hero to some, the movie star sent to act out his fantasies of intergalactic warfare. Crush the evil empire he did, leaving an ‘omics’ in his wake. This worked well, until some crazies, acting on their phallic desires, learned to fly, and now we have no idea what works anymore.

I hope this clears some stufff up.

Think about a line that extends to the left and to the right. There are degrees to everything. Communism is on the extreme left end and fascism is on the extreme right. Practically speaking, communism and fascism are largely irrelevant to politics in Western democracies. Most of the movement is in a narrow band near the middle, so when talking about mainstream politics, the terms “left” and “right” and “left wing” and “right wing” are relative. There are some communists in western democracies (the largest Communist party is probably in France: the Mitterand government was a Socialist-Communist coalition), but they aren’t generally in favour of anything as extreme as literal Marxism (which is really a social and economic theory, not a political movement) or Stalinism (the “bad guys” of your youth).

There are a small number of people who call themselves Communists, but they’re probably not what you think.

There is a very small number of countries whose governments call themselves “communist,” China and Vietnam being among them. Such countries are not as communist as they used to be.

There are two states in India – West Bengal and Kerala – whose state governments are ruled by local Communist parties, but they are freely elected parties answerable to the electorate. These states have never been ruled like the Soviet Union or China have been ruled under Communist governments.

The Nazis were fascists, at the right-wing extreme of the spectrum.

Remember that what is being described is the absolute extreme left end of political thought. Very few people, if any, fall in that range.

No, most leftists are very much in favour of democracy.

Yes, any monetary aid given to individuals by the government is by definition leftist.

You have to remember that party names do not necessarily tell you much. Especially in the United States, where the parties are not based on political philosophy.

The current system in the United States is mixed, yes, and that is true of most countries. The U.S. system, however, tends to be more to the right than other Western democracies.

Capitalism is not really a political label. It’s an economic model and the opposite of Marx’s communism. You can believe in capitalism and be on the left or the right. However, the right believes in unregulated (or laissez faire) capitalism.

Individual Republicans and Democrats might be either left or right. Speaking broadly, Democrats are slightly right of centre and Republicans are further to the right. So, generally, Democrats are left of Republicans.

Again, it depends on what definitions you are using, but in current American lexicon, liberals are to the left and conservatives are to the right.

Extreme right.

Yes, but … Conservatives want the government to do fewer things and be smaller, so conservatives are in favour of smaller bureaucracy.

People often do not agree on what words mean.

Actually, it’s more accurate to say –

Liberals believe that people should get together and help everyone in an organised fashion, through the government (and, in addition, help other people on an individual basis if they want to).

Conservatives believe that people should help each other only on an individual basis, if they want to.

This I’ve gotta disagree with. Yes, in the US in 2005, most conservatives will tell you they believe in capitalism. However this is not a defining characteristic of conservatism. Pat Buchanan is as conservative as they get and he spends half his time railing against big business destroying American values, the other half complaining about immigration. The more extreme right you are the less likely you are to endorse capitalism. Capitalism is really a liberal value that has been coopted by american conservatism simply because America has been capitalist for so long.

And of course it’s also a mistake to think that big businesses and corporations believe in laissez faire capitalism. No, most of them love regulation, they love industrial policy, it keeps out competition and reduces uncertainty. Did Chrysler want lassez faire capitalism back in the 80s when they were begging the goverment to bail them out? How about all the companies that want higher tarrifs on foreign goods? Corporations will back capitalism when they’re winning, but when they’re losing they’ll howl for the government to fix the “failures of the marketplace”. Corporations don’t want capitalism, they want a guaranteed source of money.

Actually, it’s more complicated than that, as things in general generally are. The labels “left” and “right” come from a brief period during the French Revolution, 1791-1792, when the Fueillants (constitutional monarchists) in the Legislative Assembly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Assembly_(France)) sat on the Speaker’s right and the Girondins (liberal republicans) and Jacobins (radical revolutionaries) sat on the left. Today we apply the terms to ranges of issues having nothing to do with those divisions. From the Wikipedia’s “Political Spectrum” article, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum:

Furthermore, many have criticized the very idea of trying to range all political positions along a one-dimensional “spectrum.” The same article discusses various two-axis political models or maps that have been proposed (such as the Political Compass and the Pournelle Chart), and even a three-axis model that can only be mapped in 3-D space (check it out – way cool graphics!).

BrainGlutton, I think the idea is to keep it simple.

Come on, you knew the assignment was dangerous when you took it! :wink:

I don’t want to be rude, or step on your thread or cruelly hijack it or anything, but I’m sort of interested in civics and the curriculum and what people keep from what they learned in high school, so I’ve got to ask - didn’t you learn any of this there? Didn’t you ever have to pass a class in American Government or Civics or World History? Wasn’t any of this covered in, say, elementary school? (At least that, say, China and Vietnam are Communist nations?) Again, I’m not asking to belittle you, I’m genuinely interested in the answer.

Zsofia, maybe I can answer. I took a class in HS called “Government.” I learned a lot in this class. It was probably one of the most educational classes I ever took. It was taught by a well-respected teacher and required for every 12th grade student. However, I didn’t know the difference between left and right politics when I left for college. (I learned quite a bit there, mostly from friends.)

In Government class, we learned about things like Constitutional rights, important moments in the history of our national rights (Marbury vs. Madison, Brown vs. the Board of Ed., etc.), the structure of the government, how a bill becomes a law, the judicial process (mock trials!), and lots of other important, interesting stuff.

Where the opportunities were really missed was the History curriculum. In 11 prior years of history, we’d covered the Puritans and the Civil War about three times each (somehow, this is true) but had only once broken into the 20th century (I graduated in 1999, so no 21st, of course). It would have been wonderful to have learned the history of the last century and the development of our current political state together. Think of the possibilities. Instead of “Segregation is bad, so we got rid of it,” we could have discussed what Americans’ opinions and attitudes were like in the 1960s. What are the pros and cons of affirmative action? How is this similar to, say gay rights? What is true equality? Why do people see things so differently? And so on. “Why do my parents want us to go to war with Iraq?” “Why are people protesting our fight against the terrorists?” Interesting stuff. I just never got the right idea about which decisions I was “allowed” to make in politics and what I could question.

I’m really glad to see all the helpful stuff in this thread, and kudos to Idle Thoughts for starting it. It’s hard to just “jump into” this stuff if you’ve grown up without it.

Perhaps every HS civics course should include a section on “politics” as distinct from “government.”

Lemur, I don’t disagree with you.

If talk radio has taught me anything, it’s that this is the truth.

So, Idle, has this thread diminished your ignorance appreciably? Has it caused you to change, or at least develop a more sophisticated understanding of, your own political views?

If your going to quote someone famous at least give them credit

Who am I quoting? I made that up myself!

I believe you thought of it yourself. It’s a fairly obvious joke. However, Dave Barry did say it first.

Wow. I am not making this up, :smiley: but I did not know that. And I love Dave Barry. (It might be that I read it and forgot it, but it lodged in my subconscious.)