# All right Taliban baddies, come out and fight, wherever you are . . . . HELLO???? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 13, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141 "2001-11-13T17:07:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/53a042/32.png) [@Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinnie_Virginslayer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/1 "2001-11-13T17:07:01Z")
[http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/World/Afghanistan/](http://dailynews.yahoo.com/fc/World/Afghanistan/) What a bunch of _ **PUSSIES!!!** _ 😃 😃 😃 The Northern Alliance entered Kabul . . .because it was _ABANDONED???_ Either this is a brilliant trap set by the Taliban . . .or they are the biggest bunch of puss boys on the planet!!! Frankly, while I am relieved that Kabul was taken easily and with minimal bloodhsed, frankly I’m a little dissapointed in the Taliban. I thought these guys were big, rough tough suicide bombers and hardened Afghan warriors!!! I mean, they aren’t going to put up ANY fight??? Well, I guess there’s a big difference between bullying your women and taking on someone who can actually stand up to you and fight back. The Taliban remind me of a bunch of wife-beaters: they get the shit kicked out of them all day, so they come home and take it out on their defenseless spouses. What next? We capture Osama bin-Laden dressed in a bhurkah??? _ **WHAT A BUNCH OF DICKLESS SISSIES!!!** _ ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/2 "2001-11-13T17:18:49Z")
I think that that that the US, in cooperation with many of the strongest militaries in the world, completely blowing the Taliban the fuck up, may have had something to do with their, eh, strategic withdrawel. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/3 "2001-11-13T17:42:37Z")
The Taleban are not suicide bombers. You’re confusing issues. As to the supposed cowardice, according to all reports (I refer to reports by al-Jazeera, Iranian radio and BBC Arabic Service – with on the ground reporters who speak the language) they have withdrawn to more defensible positions in an orderly manner – although the peripheral militias are certainly peeling off. Indeed, the withdrawal was predicted by Northern Alliance commanders to Jazeera before it even happened insofar as both sides understood that the Taleban did not want to fight on hostile (esp. in re the populace) not easily defended terrain. It may be nice emotional fun to post things like this, but without much real basis. Sissies the Afghans are not. If you think so, buy a ticket to Pakistan and set out for Qandahar. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/4 "2001-11-13T17:52:17Z")
Hell, it is easy to talk the talk when nobody stands up to you. I think that the Taliban were expecting the same sort of half assed effort that the Russians gave when they were in Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![RainbowDragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6a8cbe/32.png) [@RainbowDragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RainbowDragon)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/5 "2001-11-13T18:18:48Z")
Perhaps I have played too many wargames, but a withdraw is not necessarily a sign of weakness. A withdraw allows you to consolidate your power, and perhaps lure your opponent into following you. Although consolidating your power might not be a good thing in wake of the American bombardments. One real Taliban advantage of pulling out forces from Kabul is that they survived to fight another day. Had they continued to be bombed by the US and attacked by the Northern Alliance, things could have been a lot worse. Better to head for the mountains and fight guerilla style has they had done for years upon years. The real victory in taking Kabul is the morale burst for those opposed to the oppressive Taliban. The fact that men are shaving their beards and women removing facial covering are tastes of freedom that are making it difficult for the Taliban to keep control. This is a battle to be won not on the battlefield but in the hearts of the Afghan people. ---
**Author:** ![stolichnaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bcef8e/32.png) [@stolichnaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stolichnaya)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/6 "2001-11-13T18:30:33Z")
It’s unrealistic to hope, hope, hope that they’re “sissies”. Most of them have been fighting in one way or another, for one side or another, since they were teenagers. Plus, what we will eventually come up against (should we pursue this) will be the subset of the most concentrated, most committed, and best equipped, the others having departed for greener pastures during the relentless bombing campaign. And they will have chosen a defensible position in advance. I believe that if we do have to go in and get them, it will be bloody. I admit that it is somewhat satisfying to hear reports that men are shaving beards and women doffing cover in a Kabul deserted by the Taliban. We have to remember that if we choose to go and fight them conventionally, they will likely make us pay dearly for the priveledge. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/7 "2001-11-13T18:46:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by adam yax \* > Hell, it is easy to talk the talk when nobody stands up to you. Yes, it **is** isn’t it. Of course if you think that applies to the bloody ten years of village by village civil war which Afghanistan has experienced, you’re an ignorant fool. > [@](#): > > I think that the Taliban were expecting the same sort of half assed effort that the Russians gave when they were in Afghanistan. Half-assed effort? If you’re talking politics, perhaps yes. If you’re talking military effort, well what does half-assed mean? Willingness to slaughter whole villages with bombardments? Savage, scorched earth warfare with little regard for civilians? Immense application of force with little sense of a political solution? All these things could describe the Soviet war in Afghanistan. Or even their current action in Chechnya. If you think that somehow the USA has proven “badder” the the Soviets, you know nothing of the war. We’ve been more effective in the realm of targetting the right people (with mistakes to be sure) and getting Afghans (in the North where the Taleban were already hated) on our side. But for pure violence… Again, all reports I heard indicate a staged withdrawal under cover of darkness to more easily defended terrain and more friendly populations. Not sissies, good military tactics given their limitations. ---
**Author:** ![rsa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rsa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rsa)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/8 "2001-11-13T19:02:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > Again, all reports I heard indicate a staged withdrawal under cover of darkness to more easily defended terrain and more friendly populations. Not sissies, good military tactics given their limitations. What about this over at MSNBC? > [@](#): > > ``` > The Taliban’s spiritual leader, Mohammed Omar, reportedly urged his scattered fighters to regroup and fight. “I order you to completely obey your commanders,” the private Pakistan-based Afghan Islamic Press quoted Omar as saying to his troops in a radio address said to have been made from Kandahar. > “Any person who runs frantically back and forth is like a slaughtered chicken that falls and dies,” Omar said. “You should regroup yourselves, resist and fight.” > > ``` Doesn’t sound exactly like an orderly military strategy. > [@](#): > > ``` > Sources contacted by telephone in Jalalabad said it appeared the Taliban were preparing to abandon that northeastern city too. The sources spoke on condition of anonymity. > And in Pakistan, the Taliban embassy — the militia’s only diplomatic mission — abruptly closed, with the ambassador and staff seen driving away. > > ``` Afghans are certainly not sissie’s, but they are opportunistic and fickle. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/9 "2001-11-13T19:33:39Z")
In my view, “more easily defensible positions” isn’t quite appropriate. I think it’s more like “moving to whatever’s left.” During the war with the Russians, they were getting resupplied. That’s not happening anymore. Moreover, they can’t really hide. Anything moving, living, or emitting electromagnetic radiation can be found. Also, the populace itself will be providing the “humint.” That wasn’t true of the Russian incursion. While it may be possible to live in a cave during an Afghanistan winter, it’s more than just merely problematic to conduct an effective war from such strongholds. Supplies can only last so long, especially when you can’t even start a campfire to warm yourself or cook your rice without risking a hellfire missle joining you for breakfast. Even guerilla actions would be of limited effectiveness since, every time you initiate an action, you use up irreplaceable materiel and manpower. Let’s hope the Taliban recognizes this and gives up. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/10 "2001-11-13T20:02:17Z")
The Iraqi army this ain’t. They’ve proven their fighting mettle over more years than you would care to count. I’ll breathe a little easier if, over the course of time, this indeed proves to not be some kind of strategy where our forces are hit with the Afghan equivalent of the Tet Offensive, primarily from the south. I’d like to think that these soldiers are beginning to recognize that the Taliban is doomed and not worth fighting for. So, what are they planning to do? Lay down their weapons, intermingle with the populace, and use the Shaggy Defense? “Wudn’t me.” ---
**Author:** ![Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/53a042/32.png) [@Vinnie\_Virginslayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vinnie_Virginslayer)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/11 "2001-11-13T20:06:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by rsa \* > \*\* > [QUOTEWhat about this over at MSNBC? > > > [@](#): > > > > ``` > > The Taliban’s spiritual leader, Mohammed Omar, reportedly urged his scattered fighters to regroup and fight. “I order you to completely obey your commanders,” the private Pakistan-based Afghan Islamic Press quoted Omar as saying to his troops in a radio address said to have been made from Kandahar. > > “Any person who runs frantically back and forth is like a slaughtered chicken that falls and dies,” Omar said. “You should regroup yourselves, resist and fight.” > > > > ``` > > \*\* Must have been the same chicken that plucked his eye out! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/12 "2001-11-13T20:23:22Z")
In my professional opinion I would say the retreat is a sign not of a strategic fickle move by a group of highly trained soldiers, but a “OH SHIT! Those are big fucking bombs! Not only can I not hear anymore, my pants have been soiled for three days lets get the fuck out” Then unfortunately they will arrive in Kandahar and find that the only thing they can do there is park their 1987 Toyota pick up on the HUGE parking lot designed and implemented by several hundred US bombs. “UHH OHH” Mr.Taliban says “What the fuck do we do now? all the women can see us through their newly unveiled heads and they are realizing that we have all made the trip back from Kabul with soiled pants and we stink like holy akbar shit!” Not good. NO NO! The taliban are a forcible group who thought that the US was just a bunch of sissy bastards that had no idea how to fight. Well when and if we do start to have combat missions, they will most likely add to the soil already infecting their hemp undies, and throw their hands up in surrender! This of course only in a perfect world. Most likely the stronger more experienced Taliban will indeed put up a fight, but they will not have the numbers or the defenses yet or ever again to even give us a good training mission. Last I heard many of the younger Talibanis are scattering into the desert, and melting into the crouds. Not wanting to continue anymore. Sure there will be the die hards who want to fight but they will most likely not last another couple weeks…We’ll see. Wuss ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/13 "2001-11-13T21:21:20Z")
Let’s not forget that the locals are _ **rejoicing** _ with the withdrawl of the Taliban! Supposedly the local barber shops are jammed with men wanting shaves! So, I’d say that no matter where the Taliban goes and regroups, there’s going to be large numbers of locals willing to help flush them out. 🙂 I keep hearing George C. Scott as Patton, screaming for weapons to arm the Germans so that they can take out the Russians for some odd reason. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/14 "2001-11-14T01:47:12Z")
The majority of the Taliban’s fighters are not Taliban per se, but allied tribal levies. Their support is conditional, and as someone pointed out, fickle. It appears that once the Taliban started taking serious losses and suffering battlefield reverses, some of that conditional support melted away. Not necessarily defections ( as many of these Pashtun tribes have little affection for the NA ), but retreating to their home districts to defend their tribal assets. The hardcore Taliban, deprived of these auxiliaries, likely found themselves in a situation where they felt that it was too costly ( or more likely, impossible ) to hold on to urban centers where they aren’t very popular to begin with ( i.e. Kabul, Herat ). So I imagine they did exactly what the Mujahadeen did in response to the Soviets - Pull back to mountain redoubts where they have more support and will be very difficult to extract. I should note that this calvacade of events is not unprecedented. I seem to recall that the military rise of the Taliban started with a prolonged battle for Jalalabad ( on the road between Peshawar and Kabul ). After that victory, there was a second prolonged battle for Kabul. After _that_, the massive defections began and the opposition collapsed like a paper-bag in the south. The NA retreated to their “home territory” in the north and the Taliban began the steady process of grinding them down up there. But the NA ( or what would become elements of the NA ) really did collapse almost overnight after Kabul was lost. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/15 "2001-11-14T02:12:20Z")
in 1812, if you’ll recall, the Russians fled and BURNED Moscow rather than stand and fight the French. And it worked. Napoleon’s army starved in the Russian winter. ---
**Author:** ![Zenster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/cdc98d/32.png) [@Zenster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zenster)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/16 "2001-11-14T03:42:44Z")
I’d like to think their absence had something to do with having their lungs sucked out through their nostrils by our [“Daisy Cutters”](http://www.nawcwpns.navy.mil/clmf/faeseq.html). There’s nothing like [vacuum bombs](http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/02/chech0215b.htm) to create a power vacuum. As much as I’d like to feel horrified by what these bombs do to people, I’ve been far too revolted by what has happened to Afghan women to feel a scintilla of sympathy for anyone who would perpetuate such abuse. Welcome to paybacks American style, Taliban. ---
**Author:** ![Tymp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Tymp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tymp)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/17 "2001-11-14T16:01:00Z")
Zenster, What you’re calling a “daisy cutter” is actually an FAE. [This is a “daisy cutter.”](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/dumb/blu-82.htm) See also [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=98898). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2001, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/18 "2001-11-14T16:29:20Z")
Well now, this is looking less and less like a “strategic withdrawal,” and more and more like a rout. Some snippets from a long [ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/STRIKE_MAIN.html) article: > [@](#): > > After a series of rapid-fire victories by the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan, the Taliban appeared to be > unraveling today as U.S. warplanes continued to stalk the southern Afghan skies, hunting down Taliban soldiers retreating from Kabul to the south. > [@](#): > > U.S. intelligence sources told ABCNEWS that bin Laden, the prime suspect in the Sept. 11 attacks, and his inner circle had left the mountain caves where they were believed to be hiding. > [@](#): > > Northern Alliance leaders today said the Taliban had lost control of Kandahar, home to the Taliban’s reclusive spiritual leader Mullah Mohammad Omar. > [@](#): > > …But as Taliban troops across the country appeared to be on the run, there were concerns about the fates awaiting many Pakistani and Arab mercenaries who once supported the Taliban. If I had to venture a guess, I would say that bin Laden is making a desperate effort to slip out of the country, and that US special forces are working with equal fervor to prevent that from happening. ---
**Author:** ![saudade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c0e974/32.png) [@saudade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saudade)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/19 "2001-11-15T01:58:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Collounsbury \* > \*\* > It may be nice emotional fun to post things like this, but without much real basis. Sissies the Afghans are not. If you think so, buy a ticket to Pakistan and set out for Qandahar. \*\* I don’t think anyone disparaged all Afghans or their fighting abilities, just the Taleban (who are not all native Afghans either). It’s obvious that the Taleban had little popular support in these urban areas. But the hills and mountains may be another story. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2001, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141/20 "2001-11-15T21:30:20Z")
According to today’s _USA Today_, some members of the Taliban are talking about [turning](http://www.usatoday.com/news/attack/2001/11/15/hunt-usatlede.htm) Bin Laden over to the US. Whether or not they’ll actually be able to do it, is another story. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-right-taliban-baddies-come-out-and-fight-wherever-you-are-hello/93141.md?page=2)