# All Things Considered, Is Beer Or Wine Better For A Whole (Ancient? European?) Civilization? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Tags:** beer, wine\ **Created:** [April 24, 2024, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678 "2024-04-24T00:14:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2024, 8:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678/61 "2024-04-28T08:39:13Z")
> [@bump](#): > > Look at it this way- if you’ve got a bushel of grain, that’s good for some period. If you brew it into beer, you get about a barrel of beer (31 gallons), and that potentially can keep longer. Stored properly, wheat will last 30 years, and, stored and processed properly, so will beer. But the brewery I worked for moved to pasturized beer because beer doesn’t keep reliably, and even soft flour does. The Roman empire was based on long-life grain. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2024, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678/62 "2024-04-28T20:07:49Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > What’s the earliest wine making we know of, and how do we know? As both seem to be pre history, we have to rely upon archaeological evidence, thus nothing is 100%. But the evidence humans _made_ beer is older than humans _made_ wine. > [@Melbourne](#): > > Stored properly, wheat will last 30 years, Did the ancients have ways to store mass amounts of grain that way? In any case, generally, you dont have to be worried about rodents eating your beer. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2024, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678/63 "2024-04-28T22:12:17Z")
Any container that seals beer in can seal rodents out. And if you just have open jugs, rodents can fall into your beer and drown in it. That would product some off flavors, at least. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2024, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678/64 "2024-04-28T23:24:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Did the ancients have ways to store mass amounts of grain that way? In any case, generally, you dont have to be worried about rodents eating your beer. Wikipedia references reports that Emperor Septimus Severus ( 193-211) had 7 years worth of grain stored for the Roman subsidized grain distribution. The main and import point of course, was just to have enough every year to last to the next harvest. Rats will certainly drink beer, for the same reasons people will, including as food. If they aren’t getting into your beer, that’s because you are using rat-proof storage (that can also be used for grain). ---
**Author:** ![scudsucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scudsucker/32/14101_2.png) [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678/65 "2024-04-29T15:16:18Z")
As an amateur brewer, my career started during the COVID lockdown with Kvass, a bread based “beer” brewed in 50l drums with a home-made airlock. I have since branched out to more comercial ingredients, but the kvass was pretty decent, like a strong ginger beer. I have recently made wine, plum wine, which (on tasting it 2 months premature) is not bad. Not terrible, beautiful color and a light chenin-blanc flavour. It was easier to make than beer, even when relying on natural yeast - which I do not with beer. I’ve mentioned this on these forums, but my name “scudsucker” refers to my appetite for traditional southern African sorghum beer, which is easily the most simple beer there is: crush sorghum, add sugar if you have some, water and yeast (if you have that, else it takes a bit more time). It is thick, porridge-like, and opaque. New brews tend to be creamy, older ones tend to smell bad. All delicious, though you do need an aquired taste. I think small beer was one of the foundations of European society. People no longer (well, less often) dropped dead of various water-born illnesses because the wort needed to be boiled. Similarly the traditional African beer requires boiling. Wine may kill pathogens due to its higher alcohol content, but you can make beer of of many, many different grains. It is just an easy thing to make. Interestingly - to me as a brewer and a soughdough baker - both fermented foods, it seems [that both emerged](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://wearegoodinbread.com/the-history-of-sourdough/%23:~:text%3DThe%2520oldest%2520recorded%2520use%2520of,a%2520light%2520loaf%2520of%2520bread.&ved=2ahUKEwjiqszD2-eFAxUxfqQEHQ5KAO0QFnoECBAQBQ&usg=AOvVaw3z3xwCLKWReEDU5CepddZO) around the same time ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2024, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678/66 "2024-04-29T17:00:47Z")
> [@scudsucker](#): > > I think small beer was one of the foundations of European society. A local friend makes small beer, and it’s delicious. The alcohol content is very low, it’s primarily a beverage, not a form of booze. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678/67 "2024-05-06T14:25:36Z")
Nothing. But it has absolutely got bearing on what is meant by wine and beer _in the thread_ Sorry for delayed reply, been in the desert for AfrikaBurn. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2024, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678/68 "2024-05-06T17:14:59Z")
Sounds like you had some fun. That’s a good reason to take your time. The definition of beer and wine in thread should be based on refined forms of these drinks, not simply excess food bubbling in a clay pot by accident. The predecessors of the refined form of those drinks should also be examined to understand the subject entirely. The preponderance of evidence shows beer in a refined form predated an equivalent level of wine production. I’m kind of interested in how that came to be, but that may all rest on speculation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-things-considered-is-beer-or-wine-better-for-a-whole-ancient-european-civilization/1000678.md?page=3)