# ALL this Political Talk... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 24, 2010, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226 "2010-02-24T03:19:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/41 "2010-02-24T19:13:47Z")
wrong thread ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/42 "2010-02-24T19:18:39Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > I’d love to know how you are so certain of basic human nature. Describing your own belief system and then assuming other people follow is not very convincing. But I suppose this thread is not the place for that discussion. > > _Wayne’s world_ Crazy on! Crazy on indeed. I’m not describing my belief system, I’m describing what I see people doing. The bulk of non-familial human interactions in our society are based on trying to obtain an advantage over the other participants. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/43 "2010-02-24T19:20:39Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Crazy on indeed. I’m not describing my belief system, I’m describing what I see people doing. The bulk of non-familial human interactions in our society are based on trying to obtain an advantage over the other participants. Addendum: Within the socioeconomic system already vastly established. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/44 "2010-02-24T19:25:19Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > It’s also not the case that if an individual feels a certain notion about humanity, that all humanity must feel exactly the same as them. > > Another thing is, you’re assuming humans have a default state. A little question begging there. But he’s seen other people engaging in free trade and engaging in barter or comparison shopping (it’s a little hard to tell which he was describing), therefore it’s not just him. Therefore, all humans love competition and have no interest in that namby-pamby cooperation stuff. ETA: Not to support the OP’s argument either - I can’t tell what it _is_. My brain refuses to parse his double-spacing - I’m not kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/45 "2010-02-24T19:25:52Z")
> [@lurking\_guest](#): > > My question is this: Do you want to hold onto your geographical country, your philosophy, your form of government, your financial advantage, your social advantage, your educational advantage, MORE than your connections to EVER SINGLE PERSON on the face of this Earth…or not? This is just to say I have eaten the social advantages that were inherent in the social structure and which you were probably saving for future generations Forgive me they were delicious so sweet and so cold ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/46 "2010-02-24T19:26:18Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It isn’t just for breakfast anymore, you know? Seriously, and I’m only saying this because I care…there are a lot of decaffeinated brands on the market that are just as tasty as the real thing. More lies from The Man. First they take our caffeine. Next they will come for our bakery products. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/47 "2010-02-24T19:28:23Z")
And leather goods. And, I didn’t really say that. Because I care. I’m such an evil under-lord for. Our lizard masters. But…they give me ponies. And llamas. And hookers. And small furry animals. For my evil purposes. -XT ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/48 "2010-02-24T19:33:49Z")
I have killed. I have helped kill. I have killed part of myself. I cannot change this. I… I must seek Buddha. I must seek Christ. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/49 "2010-02-24T19:36:57Z")
> [@kingbighair](#): > > I have killed. > > I have helped kill. > > I have killed part of myself. > > I cannot change this. > > I… > > I must seek Buddha. > > I must seek Christ. To. Kill. Them too? Is it. A contract. Or something? ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/50 "2010-02-24T19:40:00Z")
> [@PatriotGrrrl](#): > > What are French revolutionaries doing in the US? The peasants are revolting? I got nuthin’. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/51 "2010-02-24T19:42:03Z")
Buddha is the contact. For the blow. He has. Smoke too. Jesus has access. To the hookers. Ponies. Leather and. Baked goods. But sadly. No small furry animals are to be gotten from. This source. ☹ -XT ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/52 "2010-02-24T19:44:52Z")
> [@Katriona](#): > > The peasants are revolting? > > I got nuthin’. Come now… they’re not that bad! However, they are an acquired taste. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/53 "2010-02-24T19:59:13Z")
Both are huge generalizations, but if anything **Rand Rover** ’s looks like a smaller one than the OP’s ‘everybody would be cooperating if not for the oligarchy’ theory. Am I missing something here? ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/54 "2010-02-24T20:05:38Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > But he’s seen other people engaging in free trade and engaging in barter or comparison shopping (it’s a little hard to tell which he was describing), therefore it’s not just him. Therefore, all humans love competition and have no interest in that namby-pamby cooperation stuff. > > ETA: Not to support the OP’s argument either - I can’t tell what it _is_. My brain refuses to parse his double-spacing - I’m not kidding. So, in other words, you didn’t even read what I was responding to (because your brain can’t parse double-spacing . . .) and yet you are OK with wading in here and pissing on my post. Whatever. If that’s where you want to be when Jesus comes again, you go right ahead. In the meantime, maybe you and cmyk and kingbighair can give me some examples from everyday life that show that people want nothing more than to help other people. You know, examples of voluntary pay cuts, paying $200 for something priced at 50 cents, that sort of thing. The desire for competition is so inherent that people even do it just for fun! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/55 "2010-02-24T20:07:12Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Am I missing something here? [/QUOTE] Your brain chip might be on the fritz. Find a wall or other hard surface and smartly bang your os frontales on said surface repeatedly until you hear a small buzzing noise. Feel any better now? Make more sense? Here, have a pony… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/56 "2010-02-24T20:25:00Z")
I could probably get the same side effects by rereading the OP a few times. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![kingbighair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/13edae/32.png) [@kingbighair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kingbighair)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/57 "2010-02-24T20:48:42Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > … > > In the meantime, maybe you and cmyk and kingbighair can give me some examples from everyday life that show that people want nothing more than to help other people. You know, examples of voluntary pay cuts, paying $200 for something priced at 50 cents, that sort of thing. The desire for competition is so inherent that people even do it just for fun! Seriously? I cannot help but think I am being set up here. [http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/257867](http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/257867) [http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/music/is-jon-bon-jovi-the-biggest-tipper-in-town/story-e6frfn09-1111115369779](http://www.news.com.au/entertainment/music/is-jon-bon-jovi-the-biggest-tipper-in-town/story-e6frfn09-1111115369779) > **[90phut TV - Trực tiếp bóng đá #1- Link TTBD HD Hôm Nay](https://aimclinics.com)** > > 90PHUT TV trực tiếp bóng đá HD ở tất cả giải đấu, xem bóng đá trực tuyến không quảng cáo, không giật lag cùng đội ngũ BLV chuyên môn cao hoàn toàn miễn phí. [http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/22/news/international/haiti\_donations/](http://money.cnn.com/2010/01/22/news/international/haiti_donations/) [http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/25/magazines/fortune/charity1.fortune/](http://money.cnn.com/2006/06/25/magazines/fortune/charity1.fortune/) [http://seeker401.wordpress.com/2009/07/30/charles-chuck-feeney-philanthropist/](http://seeker401.wordpress.com/2009/07/30/charles-chuck-feeney-philanthropist/) [http://salisburygrinch.blogspot.com/2010/02/as-example-of-selfless-giving.html](http://salisburygrinch.blogspot.com/2010/02/as-example-of-selfless-giving.html) > **[hooverassociation.org | SNMP](https://hooverassociation.org)** [http://www.morganhilltimes.com/news/252844-award-winners-examples-of-humility-giving](http://www.morganhilltimes.com/news/252844-award-winners-examples-of-humility-giving) > **[Humanitarian response to the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_response_to_the_2004_Indian_Ocean_earthquake)** > > The humanitarian response to the 2004 Indian Ocean earthquake of a magnitude of 9.2–9.3 was prompted by one of the worst natural disasters of modern times. On 26 December 2004, the earthquake, which struck off the northwest coast of the Indonesian island of Sumatra, generated a tsunami that wreaked havoc along much of the rim of the Indian Ocean. Particularly hard-hit were the countries of Indonesia, India, Sri Lanka and Thailand. About 230,000 people were killed, tens of thousands more were i... [http://www.indiana.edu/~koertge/H205/Artificegiving.htm](http://www.indiana.edu/~koertge/H205/Artificegiving.htm) > **[Altruism (biology)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altruism_in_animals)** > > In biology, altruism is behaviour by an individual that increases the fitness of another individual while decreasing their own. Altruism in this sense is different from the philosophical concept of altruism, in which an action would only be called "altruistic" if it was done with the conscious intention of helping another. In the behavioural sense, there is no such requirement. As such, it is not evaluated in moral terms—it is the consequences of an action for reproductive fitness that determi > **[Tit for tat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tit_for_Tat)** > > Tit for tat is an English saying meaning "equivalent retaliation". It is an alternation of tip for tap "blow for blow", first recorded in 1558. > It is also a highly effective strategy in game theory. An agent using this strategy will first cooperate, then subsequently replicate an opponent's previous action. If the opponent previously was cooperative, the agent is cooperative. If not, the agent is not. This is similar to reciprocal altruism in biology. > Tit-for-tat has been very successfully used... > **[Reciprocal altruism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reciprocal_altruism)** > > In evolutionary biology, reciprocal altruism is a behaviour whereby an organism acts in a manner that temporarily reduces its fitness while increasing another organism's fitness, with the expectation that the other organism will act in a similar manner at a later time. > The concept was initially developed by Robert Trivers to explain the evolution of cooperation as instances of mutually altruistic acts. The concept is close to the strategy of "tit for tat" used in game theory. In 1987, Trivers pr... [http://www.microgiving.com/](http://www.microgiving.com/) [http://minidonations.org/](http://minidonations.org/) > **[Welcome to RandomActsofKindness.org](https://www.randomactsofkindness.org/)** > > Thank you for visiting. > **[Welcome to RandomActsofKindness.org](https://www.randomactsofkindness.org/)** > > Thank you for visiting. > **[Small Acts That Change the World | KindSpring.org](https://www.kindspring.org)** > > A place to practice small acts of kindness. For over a decade the KindSpring community has focused on inner transformation, while collectively changing the world with generosity, gratitude, and trust. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/58 "2010-02-24T21:12:36Z")
I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, starving hysterical naked … Musta been the hookers and the blow. You can keep the pony. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/59 "2010-02-24T21:22:54Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Crazy on indeed. I’m not describing my belief system, I’m describing what I see people doing. Confirmation bias, anyone? > [@](#): > > The bulk of non-familial human interactions in our society are based on trying to obtain an advantage over the other participants. So how does Free Pancake Day at iHop fit into your cosmology? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226/60 "2010-02-24T21:37:40Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So, in other words, you didn’t even read what I was responding to (because your brain can’t parse double-spacing . . .) and yet you are OK with wading in here and pissing on my post. Whatever. If that’s where you want to be when Jesus comes again, you go right ahead. If Jesus comes again (allowing for the moment that he came the first time) it won’t matter where I’ll be - I’ll be in deep shit regardless. 80% of Christians say that what god likes, I’m not it. (Which 80% says that depends on what they think I’m like.) > [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > In the meantime, maybe you and cmyk and kingbighair can give me some examples from everyday life that show that people want nothing more than to help other people. You know, examples of voluntary pay cuts, paying $200 for something priced at 50 cents, that sort of thing. The desire for competition is so inherent that people even do it just for fun! I’d feel a lot more obligated to do that if that was actually my position rather that a moronic strawman you just threw up. _Both_ you and the OP are incorrect in painting everyone in the the universe as being one way or the other - In real life people are rational agents acting on multiple impulses that have a lot to do with self-satisfaction and care for persons the person identifies with (be that everyone, just their country, just their tribe, just their family, or just themselves), and very little to do with _either_ selfless altruism or compulsive competition as underlying motivations. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-this-political-talk/530226.md?page=4)