# All you need to know about American 'justice' **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 10, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187 "2010-11-10T16:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Redpill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/58956e/32.png) [@Redpill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Redpill)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/21 "2010-11-11T18:46:07Z")
A much better idea would have been to shoplift from grocery store. Maybe he needed the money for something else. I feel for him. The real outrage is the AIG guy’s sentence. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2010, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/22 "2010-11-11T18:48:31Z")
It sure sounds to me like the bank robber wanted to go someplace where he could be assured of his three squares. He took the money, then took himself off to the police station. he got what he wanted. StG ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/23 "2010-11-12T05:30:20Z")
> [@carm](#): > > WTF?? > > The guy is clearly trying to get clean, sort his life out. How the fuck can you be so callous? I pointed out the facts of the situation as presented. Clearly he wasn’t born a homeless drug addict. He’s made decisions that affected his life in a negative way including the robbing of a bank. > [@carm](#): > > Also, if he stole a wallet with $100 in it he probably would have gotten a much lighter sentence. Why is it worse to steal from a bank than a person? It’s not the amount, it’s the act. [A bank robbery is considered a violent act](http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/71919/bank_robbery_in_criminal_law.html?cat=17). The penalties are stiff to discourage the behavior. In this case, his sentence does not reflect the maximum penalty and is more in line with [armed robbery](http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Armed-Robbery.htm). He made a choice having some idea of the penalties involved and then turned himself in. It appears as if he did this deliberately to get arrested. > [@carm](#): > > The US justice system is fucking despicable. That’s certainly your opinion and when you get robbed you’re free to hand the robber an award for good citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2010, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/24 "2010-11-12T06:10:59Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not the amount, it’s the act. [A bank robbery is considered a violent act](http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/71919/bank_robbery_in_criminal_law.html?cat=17). The penalties are stiff to discourage the behavior. Somewhat related examples might be . . . “WTF, man, who goes to prison for two years just for lying about something?!” Well, you might if it’s an FBI agent you’re talking to. “WTF man, who goes to jail for just _saying_ you want to hurt somebody?!” Well, you might if it’s the President you’re talking about. ISTM society assigns penalties not just for the act itself, but the context in which it’s taken. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/25 "2010-11-13T05:13:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I pointed out the facts of the situation as presented. Clearly he wasn’t born a homeless drug addict. He’s made decisions that affected his life in a negative way including the robbing of a bank. Do you think he sounds like a serial bank robber? It seems he didn’t even have a gun, he only took $100 and then he gave the rest back. Afterwards, he confessed! Do you consider it a possibility that the guy is actually _not_ a “bad guy”, just an extrordinarily bad decision maker? > [@](#): > > It’s not the amount, it’s the act. [A bank robbery is considered a violent act](http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/71919/bank_robbery_in_criminal_law.html?cat=17). The penalties are stiff to discourage the behavior. In this case, his sentence does not reflect the maximum penalty and is more in line with [armed robbery](http://www.criminaldefenselawyer.com/crime-penalties/federal/Armed-Robbery.htm). He made a choice having some idea of the penalties involved and then turned himself in. It appears as if he did this deliberately to get arrested. Yes, bank robbery is a crime. All bank robberies are not equivalent however. This isn’t some [Heat](http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/3303858) style heist - it’s a guy who obviously isn’t employable, trying to get his hands on a bit of money, so that he didn’t get kicked out of rehab. Do you consider it insignificant that he didn’t take as much money as he could have? Or that he felt guilty and confessed? > [@](#): > > That’s certainly your opinion and when you get robbed you’re free to hand the robber an award for good citizenship. I’ve been robbed in person before. Not a particularly pleasant experience. Fifteen year sentences, however, should be reserved for hardened criminals and serious crimes. This guy may be a fuckup; but in fifteen years time all he’ll be is an institutionalised wreck, even less suited to society than he is at the moment. I’d imagine he will also show some resentment to the society that showed him no compassion whatsoever, when he did the “right thing” and fessed up. If the sentence was a couple of months, I’d be ok with it. That would leave him a decent chance of coming out, starting a new chapter and hopefully making a better go of it this time around. But instead, when he gets out he’ll be 71 years old (dob is on his mugshot in link above). Maybe he gets paroled early, gets out when he’s 65. Just in time to retire. All the time he’s costing the state thousands per year. If he _is_ actually extremely dangerous, if he has a history of assaults, violent robberies, etc, and he’s demonstrably a serious danger to society, then fair enough. But nothing in the article suggests that he is particularly dangerous, in fact his actions suggest the opposite. Tell me, if you think this guy got what he deserved for the choices he made; what sentence does the AIG guy deserve? At 15 years per $100 dollars, that’s. . . 75 million years? What sentence is fair for Mr AIG? ---
**Author:** ![Lubricious\_Integument](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lubricious\_Integument](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lubricious_Integument)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/26 "2010-11-13T05:18:49Z")
15 years? Luxury! This [poor victim of society](http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2010/11/12/life-in-prison-for-lewisville-repeat-drunk-driver/) got life for having a drink (which is legal, BTW). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/27 "2010-11-13T05:30:07Z")
**Magiver** , I seem to recall you complaining that we pay too much in food stamps, and that they should be reduced. ---
**Author:** ![BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2010, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/28 "2010-11-13T09:52:25Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > I guess you could look at it this way: he won’t ever be hungry again in jail. > > I’ve considered that, if I somehow end up homeless someday, I’ll pull off something petty but criminal so I would at least have a bed to sleep in and 3 squares a day. Because sleeping under bridges fucking SUCKS. > [@don\_t\_ask](#): > > I’ve had the same thought. In fact I tried to write a screenplay about it - some guy who, due to circumstances, decides that a few years in a low security prison will be better than being chased by creditors, scratching for money to pay rent and eat. That maybe he can get his shit together while he has nothing but free time. I guess in this era of Hollywood, even [O. Henry](http://members.multimania.co.uk/shortstories/ohenrycop.html) could use a reboot. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/29 "2010-11-14T05:47:56Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Do you think he sounds like a serial bank robber? It seems he didn’t even have a gun, he only took $100 and then he gave the rest back. Afterwards, he confessed! Do you consider it a possibility that the guy is actually _not_ a “bad guy”, just an extrordinarily bad decision maker? > > Yes, bank robbery is a crime. All bank robberies are not equivalent however. This isn’t some [Heat](http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/3303858) style heist - it’s a guy who obviously isn’t employable, trying to get his hands on a bit of money, so that he didn’t get kicked out of rehab. Do you consider it insignificant that he didn’t take as much money as he could have? Or that he felt guilty and confessed? You’re making value judgments about someone you know nothing about. He got a trial and all the facts were considered. He was not given the maximum sentence and will not likely serve the entire sentence he did get. He may truly be someone who makes extraordinarily bad decisions but he made them and there are no “do-overs” in court. Considering how stupid the whole event was it seems likely that he chose to go to prison. > [@carm](#): > > I’ve been robbed in person before. Not a particularly pleasant experience. Fifteen year sentences, however, should be reserved for hardened criminals and serious crimes. This guy may be a fuckup; but in fifteen years time all he’ll be is an institutionalised wreck, even less suited to society than he is at the moment. I’d imagine he will also show some resentment to the society that showed him no compassion whatsoever, when he did the “right thing” and fessed up. > > If the sentence was a couple of months, I’d be ok with it. That would leave him a decent chance of coming out, starting a new chapter and hopefully making a better go of it this time around. But instead, when he gets out he’ll be 71 years old (dob is on his mugshot in link above). Maybe he gets paroled early, gets out when he’s 65. Just in time to retire. All the time he’s costing the state thousands per year. If he _is_ actually extremely dangerous, if he has a history of assaults, violent robberies, etc, and he’s demonstrably a serious danger to society, then fair enough. But nothing in the article suggests that he is particularly dangerous, in fact his actions suggest the opposite. > > Tell me, if you think this guy got what he deserved for the choices he made; what sentence does the AIG guy deserve? At 15 years per $100 dollars, that’s. . . 75 million years? > > What sentence is fair for Mr AIG? Since I don’t know who Mr AIG is I can’t comment on the one sentence blurb that was posted. However, Bernard Madoff got sentenced to 150 years in prison for fraud and that seems fair to me. It’s easy to read half a paragraph and rage against the machine. You’re right that nothing suggests he’s a violent robber. There is also nothing to suggest that he’s in line for sainthood. That’s what the court system had to decide. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/30 "2010-11-14T05:49:10Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > **Magiver** , I seem to recall you complaining that we pay too much in food stamps, and that they should be reduced. They you would recall incorrectly. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/31 "2010-11-14T07:53:43Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > Dude - robbery is robbery. Period. The homeless guy could have gotten help from hundreds of different places. Instead, he chose to jack a bank. It was his own stupid decision that landed his ass in jail, no one else’s. Many homeless people suffer mental impairment of one sort or another. Obtaining help may not be easy even if it is available. In GD threads one often sees right-wingers write, in effect “All I have is intelligence, experience, skill, determination, clear thinking, and some savings, and I have no trouble finding a job. What’s wrong with these stupid lazy bums?” (If the point isn’t clear, let’s move to BBQ Pit.) ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/32 "2010-11-14T08:00:39Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Since I don’t know who Mr AIG is I can’t comment on the one sentence blurb that was posted. However, Bernard Madoff got sentenced to 150 years in prison for fraud and that seems fair to me. For every imprisoned Madoff there are dozens of criminal embezzlers scot-free. (Unless you use some hyper-literal definition, wherein an unconvicted criminal is not a criminal.) One may not even need to go beyond the Madoff family to make this point. Do Madoff’s sons still have wealth? Does anyone really believe they were ignorant? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/33 "2010-11-14T15:39:41Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > For every imprisoned Madoff there are dozens of criminal embezzlers scot-free. (Unless you use some hyper-literal definition, wherein an unconvicted criminal is not a criminal.) Really? Cite? > [@septimus](#): > > One may not even need to go beyond the Madoff family to make this point. Do Madoff’s sons still have wealth? Does anyone really believe they were ignorant? Madoff’s sons turned him in when they figured out what he was doing. Consider your ignorance fought. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/34 "2010-11-14T15:58:56Z")
> [@StGermain](#): > > It sure sounds to me like the bank robber wanted to go someplace where he could be assured of his three squares. He took the money, then took himself off to the police station. he got what he wanted. > > StG Sounds to me like the same thing. It’s a kind of thing a surprising amount of people do, when it starts getting cold. I don’t think he was expecting any more than a winter’s ‘vacation’. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/35 "2010-11-14T16:06:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Madoff’s sons turned him in when they figured out what he was doing. Consider your ignorance fought. Is that clear? The scam was already being exposed; isn’t it just as likely that 72-year old Bernie, having enjoyed the good life, became the family’s sacrificial lamb? I’ve no evidence that his sons were aware of the crimes. _ **But** _, given the immensity of the fraud, the huge amount of prevarication and phony bookkeeping to pursue the fraud, and the fact that the sons were top executives in the firm, I must include that EITHER they were in on it, OR they were very _very_ stupid and/or very willfully ignorant. Hope this helps your ignorance. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/36 "2010-11-14T16:16:02Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Is that clear? The scam was already being exposed; isn’t it just as likely that 72-year old Bernie, having enjoyed the good life, became the family’s sacrificial lamb? > > I’ve no evidence that his sons were aware of the crimes. > _ **But** _, given the immensity of the fraud, the huge amount of prevarication and phony bookkeeping to pursue the fraud, and the fact that the sons were top executives in the firm, I must include that > EITHER they were in on it, > OR they were very _very_ stupid and/or very willfully ignorant. > > Hope this helps your ignorance. 😃 [On December 10, 2008, Madoff’s sons told authorities that their father had just confessed to them that the asset management arm of his firm was a massive Ponzi scheme, and quoting him as saying it was "one big lie.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff) It’s not like it was hard to research. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/37 "2010-11-14T16:21:43Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > [On December 10, 2008, Madoff’s sons told authorities that their father had just confessed to them that the asset management arm of his firm was a massive Ponzi scheme, and quoting him as saying it was "one big lie.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Madoff) > > It’s not like it was hard to research. This is very well known, fully compatible with everything I wrote, and certainly compatible with the demonstrated fact the the scheme was about to be exposed in any event. Self-admission is the obvious and well-known way to try to mitigate a crime. On your previous bizarre request for examples of embezzlement which have been unpunished, I’m reminded (by settlement checks arriving in mail) of the very widespread 2003 mutual fund scandal. AFAIK, no one went to prison for that. And BTW, Mr. **Magiver** , I find your diction excessively snarky. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/38 "2010-11-14T18:25:16Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’re making value judgments about someone you know nothing about. He got a trial and all the facts were considered. He was not given the maximum sentence and will not likely serve the entire sentence he did get. He may truly be someone who makes extraordinarily bad decisions but he made them and there are no “do-overs” in court. Considering how stupid the whole event was it seems likely that he chose to go to prison. Oh well if he got a trial, that settles it. All sentences are completely fair, if someone gets fifteen years they clearly deserve it. Like [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leandro_Andrade) who got 50 to life for stealing video tapes - I mean, if he didn’t want life in prison, he shouldn’t have taken the tapes, right? I find your faith in the justice system rather touching. > [@](#): > > Since I don’t know who Mr AIG is I can’t comment on the one sentence blurb that was posted. However, Bernard Madoff got sentenced to 150 years in prison for fraud and that seems fair to me. > > It’s easy to read half a paragraph and rage against the machine. You’re right that nothing suggests he’s a violent robber. There is also nothing to suggest that he’s in line for sainthood. That’s what the court system had to decide. So because he’s not a saint he deserves fifteen years? Answer this: based on the limited information available, is this a fair sentence or not? You seem to be arguing that it is. Can you confirm this? ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2010, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/39 "2010-11-14T18:28:21Z")
More Louisiana fun: > [@](#): > > Roy Brown, 54, is a homeless man who said that he was hungry and needed a place to live when he walked the Capitol One bank in Shreveport, Louisiana in December 2007 and stole a single $100 bill. > > \ > \*\* > Having lived in Louisiana, I must say that this is all too familiar. I represented a man named Quenton Brown who was homeless and walked into a breadstore and stole a 15 cent pie and a handful of cash from the counter. He then crawled under the house nearby and ate the pie. He was pulled from under the house (where a non-working gun was found in his bag). Quenton had a 54 IQ — similar to a toddler. They gave in 30 years. I was able to get him out after 15 years from Angola prison.\*\* > **[Homeless Man Steals a $100 Bill From Bank, Turns Himself in the Next Day and...](https://jonathanturley.org/2009/01/28/homeless-man-steals-a-100-bill-from-bank-turns-himself-in-the-next-day-and-apologizes-and-is-given-15-years-by-louisiana-judge/)** > > Roy Brown, 54, is a homeless man who said that he was hungry and needed a place to live when he walked the Capitol One bank in Shreveport, Louisiana in December 2007 and stole a single $100 bill. T… ---
**Author:** ![fuzzypickles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9d8465/32.png) [@fuzzypickles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fuzzypickles)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/40 "2010-11-15T01:15:38Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > I have to wonder if this isn’t one of those stories where a just-released long serving convict is so institutionalized that he can’t function in the outside world, and so commits some crime and immediately surrenders so that he can go back to the world he knows. Sounds to me like that’s almost certainly the case. I’m amazed that the AIG guy got such a lengthy sentence – he must’ve had a really crappy lawyer. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187.md?page=3)