# All you need to know about American 'justice' **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 10, 2010, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187 "2010-11-10T16:53:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/41 "2010-11-15T07:32:07Z")
> [@turner](#): > > So its ok to rob a bank as long as you don’t take ALL the money. Got it. Even the Bible allows stealing if you are hungry. Heck, it even specifically told people to leave any extra stuff to make it relatively easy to steal. Stealing a lot more out of greed should obviously get you a worse sentence, as you harmed more people. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/42 "2010-11-15T07:35:16Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Oh well if he got a trial, that settles it. All sentences are completely fair, if someone gets fifteen years they clearly deserve it. Like [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leandro_Andrade) who got 50 to life for stealing video tapes - I mean, if he didn’t want life in prison, he shouldn’t have taken the tapes, right? He didn’t get 50 years for stealing video tapes, he got 50 years because he was a career criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/43 "2010-11-15T08:30:33Z")
Well, the thread is almost onto the second page and no one has bothered to look up the other guy involved. No one wants to let the facts get in the way of some good class warfare propaganda, huh? The man referenced in the _other_ article is Christian Milton. > **[Law.com](https://www.law.com/?id=1202427788088&slreturn=20230720142934)** > > Law.com delivers news, insights and resources that allow legal professionals to anticipate opportunities, adapt to change, and prepare for future success. He was one of several people involved in shady dealings between AIG and General Re, resulting in AIG’s engaging in transactions with Gen Re designed solely to allow AIG to overstate their loss reserves by $500 million. That is the “$500 million fraud” mentioned in the headline. This was a case of falsifying financial records in order to make the company look good - it’s not as if he or anyone else involved actually stole $500 million from anyone, he lied to investors and the government about the financial status of the company. Four other people at AIG were convicted as well. The two crimes really can’t be directly compared. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/44 "2010-11-15T08:36:56Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Well, the thread is almost onto the second page and no one has bothered to look up the other guy involved. No one wants to let the facts get in the way of some good class warfare propaganda, huh? You wouldn’t want to let good lampposts go to waste, now would you? ---
**Author:** ![Mollie\_Magill](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mollie_magill/32/20882_2.png) [@Mollie\_Magill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mollie_Magill)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/45 "2010-11-15T14:59:46Z")
Stupid question, but isn’t fifteen years the minimum sentence for robbing a bank? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/46 "2010-11-15T15:31:59Z")
> [@purplehorseshoe](#): > > Most of the things you mention require having an address, something the homeless are occasionally noted for not posessing. Most homeless people DO have an address. I’d say it’s an extremely small percentage of the population that doesn’t. They can use a shelter’s address if they need to. ---
**Author:** ![carm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@carm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carm)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/47 "2010-11-15T17:55:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > He didn’t get 50 years for stealing video tapes, he got 50 years because he was a career criminal. Three crimes is hardly a career criminal. [Here’s](http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/one-brother-has-57-convictions-and-is-one-of-the-most-feared-inmates-in-the-prison-system-the-other-is-a-parttime-model-and-coowner-of-a-popular-cafe-on-dublinrsquos-southside-2331458.html) a 24 year old with 57 convictions. I smoke weed occasionally (more than three times). I must be a career criminal. Hell, I’d imagine pretty much everyone I know is a career criminal. You don’t seem to be able to distinguish between serious crimes and not so serious crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/48 "2010-11-15T18:04:21Z")
> [@carm](#): > > Three crimes is hardly a career criminal. [Here’s](http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/one-brother-has-57-convictions-and-is-one-of-the-most-feared-inmates-in-the-prison-system-the-other-is-a-parttime-model-and-coowner-of-a-popular-cafe-on-dublinrsquos-southside-2331458.html) a 24 year old with 57 convictions. > > I smoke weed occasionally (more than three times). I must be a career criminal. Hell, I’d imagine pretty much everyone I know is a career criminal. You don’t seem to be able to distinguish between serious crimes and not so serious crimes. He committed more than three crimes, it’s just that those three crimes were sufficient to trigger the three strikes law. > [@Wikipedia](#): > > On November 4, 1995, Andrade stole five videotapes from a K-Mart store in Ontario, California. Two weeks later, he stole four videotapes from a different K-Mart store in Montclair, California. Andrade had been in and out of the state and federal prison systems since 1982. By the time of these two crimes in 1995, he had been convicted of petty theft, residential burglary, transportation of marijuana, and escape from prison. As a result of these prior convictions, the prosecution charged Andradewith two counts of petty theft with a prior conviction, which under California law can either be a felony or a misdemeanor. In and out of the state and federal prison system for 13 years. Sounds like a career criminal to me. ---
**Author:** ![Intolt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ec9cab/32.png) [@Intolt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intolt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2010, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/49 "2010-11-15T22:01:07Z")
n/a ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/50 "2010-11-16T00:15:00Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > The two crimes really can’t be directly compared. I agree. One guy stole a hundred bucks, and the other guy committed fraud which contributed to the largest economic catastrophe since the Great Depression. $500 million isn’t even the tip of the iceberg, and we’ll all be paying for the behaviour of this fuckhead and all the others like him for the rest of our lives, and likely for the rest of our children’s children’s lives. Oughta have stuck his head on a pike on Wall Street _pour l’encouragement des autres_. 4 years? Pah! ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/51 "2010-11-16T00:33:01Z")
In China they do indeed put a bullet in the back of the head of white collar criminals. Is their way better? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/52 "2010-11-16T01:05:07Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > In China they do indeed put a bullet in the back of the head of white collar criminals. Is their way better? [Absolutely](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=hyperbole&l=1). ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/53 "2010-11-16T02:03:54Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > And what is your rationalization for treating the $500 million fraudster so much more leniently? > Is anyone saying the robber should not be punished at all? The issue is the disproportion of the sentences to the crimes and the circumstances. The fraudster didn’t commit a violent crime. Robbery is a violent crime, even though the homeless guy only used the threat of violence instead of the actual thing. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/54 "2010-11-16T02:35:24Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > I agree. One guy stole a hundred bucks, and the other guy committed fraud which contributed to the largest economic catastrophe since the Great Depression. $500 million isn’t even the tip of the iceberg, and we’ll all be paying for the behaviour of this fuckhead and all the others like him for the rest of our lives, and likely for the rest of our children’s children’s lives. Oughta have stuck his head on a pike on Wall Street _pour l’encouragement des autres_. 4 years? Pah! This fraudulent activity occurred in late 2000 and was discovered in 2004. It had nothing to do with AIG’s or the greater economy’s later problems. But again, don’t let the facts get in the way of your populist outrage. [http://adamp.com/college/aig-and-general-re-fraud/](http://adamp.com/college/aig-and-general-re-fraud/) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/55 "2010-11-16T03:06:57Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > This fraudulent activity occurred in late 2000 and was discovered in 2004. It had nothing to do with AIG’s or the greater economy’s later problems. > > But again, don’t let the facts get in the way of your populist outrage. > > [http://adamp.com/college/aig-and-general-re-fraud/](http://adamp.com/college/aig-and-general-re-fraud/) So what you’re saying is that the culture of avarice, deceit, and fraud that brought the world’s economy to the tipping point goes back at least a decade? ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/56 "2010-11-16T04:02:07Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > So what you’re saying is that the culture of avarice, deceit, and fraud that brought the world’s economy to the tipping point goes back at least a decade? So what you’re saying is that every avaricious, deceitful and fraudulent person from the preceding decade should be held responsible for the 2008 financial crisis, and its consequences? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/57 "2010-11-16T04:21:19Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > So what you’re saying is that every avaricious, deceitful and fraudulent person from the preceding decade should be held responsible for the 2008 financial crisis, and its consequences? And should every signer of a “liar loan” and everybody now walking away from an underwater mortgage be put in prison, as well as Barney Frank, Alan Greenspan and a plethora of others in government? You (Gorsnak) might agree with the above proposition – if so, I don’t necessarily blame you but also recognize this puts you squarely in fantasyland and your views should be regarded as having that origin. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2010, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/58 "2010-11-16T04:23:33Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > So what you’re saying is that every avaricious, deceitful and fraudulent person from the preceding decade should be held responsible for the 2008 financial crisis, and its consequences? I knew I should have included a smiley in that post. Yeah, I did a cursory look at the story, didn’t see any dates that would contradict it being part of the meltdown, and reached an incorrect conclusion. My bad. Then you called me on it and I made a smart-ass comment that you took as serious. My bad again. BUT, it’s just bullshit to suggest that industrial grade fraud (which this was, even if Milton didn’t score the whole 500 mill for himself) isn’t as harmful to society as a “violent” (no one was hurt, actually) theft of a petty sum. In fact, it’s in no small part because we don’t take white collar crime seriously that so many high-flying financiers play fast and loose with the rules and we end up with 2008. So maybe Milton has no responsibility for the meltdown. But maybe if we _did_ put the heads of his ilk on pikes on Wall Street (figuratively, of course) we wouldn’t be in this mess. So yes, the OP is perfectly correct in saying that this contrast speaks poorly of American justice. Who hurt more people, the fraud or the bank robber? ---
**Author:** ![mrjimi16](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@mrjimi16](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mrjimi16)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2011, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187/59 "2011-09-19T18:41:18Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > So basically someone was driven to extreme action out of hunger and socio-economic desperation, that he he owned up to, and we Americans wag our finger and send him off to be with murderers and rapists for 15 years, instead of seeing that he gets the help he needs to be a happy and productive member of society. Not quite, guy. I doubt the guy will go to anything other than a minimum security prison where he will be fed, detoxed, and housed for the next 15 years and will probably be given the opportunity to take classes and so give him a chance to have a better life once he gets out. He may not like the idea of being in prison for 15 years but it would almost definitely be better than living on the streets. In my eyes, the guys life expectancy just went up. Silver linings people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-need-to-know-about-american-justice/560187.md?page=2)