# All you poor, deluded sufferers of communist health care in Europe, take heart **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855 "2012-04-24T22:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/1 "2012-04-24T22:56:58Z")
There is hope for a better tomorrow. Maybe with the proper reforms you too can someday be a country where [debt collectors stalk emergency rooms and demand payment before treatment is given](http://finance.yahoo.com/news/debt-collector-faulted-tough-tactics-193903914.html) > [@](#): > > Hospital patients waiting in the emergency room or convalescing after surgery could find themselves confronted by an unexpected visitor: a debt collector at bedside. > > One of the nation’s largest medical debt-collection companies is under fire in Minnesota for having placed its employees in emergency rooms and other departments at two hospitals and demanding that patients pay before receiving treatment, according to documents released Tuesday by the Minnesota attorney general. The documents say the company also used patient health records to wrangle for more money on overdue bills. > > The company, Accretive Health, has contracts with dozens of hospitals around the country. Since January, it has faced a civil lawsuit filed by Attorney General Lori Swanson of Minnesota alleging that it violated state and federal debt-collection laws and patient privacy protections…While hospital collections increased, patient care plummeted, the employees said. “Patients are harassed mercilessly,” a hospital employee told Ms. Swanson. Another hospital employee complained, “We were told if we don’t get money from patients, in the emergency room, we will be fired.” > > Accretive debt-collection employees, calling themselves “financial counselors,” are instructed by the upper management ranks to stall patients entering the emergency room until they have agreed to pay a prior balance, according to the documents. > > Patients with outstanding balances are closely tracked by Accretive staff members, who list them on what employees refer to as “stop lists,” internal documents show. In March 2011, doctors at Fairview complained that such strong-arm tactics were discouraging patients from seeking life-saving treatments, but Accretive officials dismissed the complaints as “country club talk,” the documents show. > It is not clear how many times the “stop lists” induced patients seeking emergency care to leave the hospital. > > By giving its collectors access to health records, Accretive violates the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, colloquially known as HIPAA, Ms. Swanson said. For example, an Accretive collection employee had access to records that showed a patient had bipolar disorder, Parkinson’s disease and a host of other conditions. America is just a wealthy version of a 3rd world country anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d07c76/32.png) [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Age_Quod_Agis)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/2 "2012-04-24T23:18:31Z")
That is terrible, but how can this be representative of American healthcare in general when they’re being prosecuted by the Minn. AG for violating the law? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/3 "2012-04-24T23:19:26Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > America is just a wealthy version of a 3rd world country anymore. Been that way since the 80s, dude.☹ ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/4 "2012-04-24T23:31:55Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > That is terrible, but how can this be representative of American healthcare in general when they’re being prosecuted by the Minn. AG for violating the law? It isn’t representative, I hope. ---
**Author:** ![jasg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f0a364/32.png) [@jasg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jasg)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2012, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/5 "2012-04-24T23:56:40Z")
When I read stories like this one, “[My breast has fallen off. Can you reattach it?](http://www.atlantamagazine.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1648804)” I’m not even sure we do as well as third world countries. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/6 "2012-04-25T00:56:33Z")
> [@Age\_Quod\_Agis](#): > > That is terrible, but how can this be representative of American healthcare in general when they’re being prosecuted by the Minn. AG for violating the law? Yes, they got caught. And they are being prosecuted. Of course, the small fine they receive may end up just being the cost of business. The point is not whether or not this company is representative. The point is that for-profit healthcare business in the US is incentivized to minimize what they pay out, and maximize the amount of money they take in. That is the prime purpose of a company. Have you heard of rescission? Terminating coverage for people who are sick when it is found out that they made a minor error when applying for insurance? Like they are denied treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago. Perfectly legal. The point is that US style for-profit healthcare will lead to companies trying to maximize profit. They will do this by any means possible. Most will stay just this side of the law, but others will try to get around it if they feel that they can get away with it, or that the risks that they take will outweigh any possible consequence. Contrast this with single-payer government funded health insurance. There is no incentive to maximize profit. The case cited in the OP will not occur. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/7 "2012-04-25T07:02:59Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > When I read stories like this one, “[My breast has fallen off. Can you reattach it?](http://www.atlantamagazine.com/features/story.aspx?ID=1648804)” I’m not even sure we do as well as third world countries. Oh. My. Fucking. God. I know that the expression “this makes the baby Jesus cry / puke / shit Twinkies” is vastly overused, but I can’t think of a better one at the moment. I can’t help wondering what a benevolent deity (if indeed there is such) must think of us when I read something like this. Every once in a while someone who knew that my father (on whom be peace) was a doctor would wonder why I didn’t follow in his footsteps. I used to use an article from the local Medical Society titled _Medicine is a Harsh Mistress_\* as an explanation; guess I now have something else if need be. (The fact that my father retired years before he really wanted to because the strain of standing between his patients and the insurance industry was ruining his health doesn’t fill me with warm fuzzies toward the industry, either.) \*Among other things, the author describes trying to talk to the husband of a young woman who had just died of septicemia following a miscarriage, and quotes the clerk who checked him and his fellow students into medical school on the first day: “you won’t be a real doctor until you’ve filled a cemetery.” ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/8 "2012-04-25T10:38:20Z")
I called up the NHS helpline in the wee small hours of Saturday night/Sunday morning and got an GP appointment for my daughter that day. On a _Sunday_. **Easter** Sunday. And then we went to a pharmacy to get her medicine. Which is _free_ for under-18s. Won’t someone please save us from this oppression? ---
**Author:** ![Baboonanza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f475e1/32.png) [@Baboonanza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baboonanza)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/9 "2012-04-25T11:04:46Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I called up the NHS helpline in the wee small hours of Saturday night/Sunday morning and got an GP appointment for my daughter that day. On a _Sunday_. **Easter** Sunday. > > And then we went to a pharmacy to get her medicine. Which is _free_ for under-18s. > > Won’t someone please save us from this oppression? Don’t worry, Saint Osborne has heard your pleas and is working night and day to release you from this horrible government intrusion into your right to die at the whim of insurance companies! ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/10 "2012-04-25T12:40:56Z")
I’m organising a Novena calling on intercession from the Most Pious Lansley, that we may more effectively reject the Marxist notion that taxes may be appropriated for reasons other than maintaining the police and the army. Our Leader, who art in Cabinet, Cameron be thy name. Thy will be written, in the Spectator, as it is in the Telegraph. Do not give us this day any concessions, for Richard Titmuss believed in the nanny state and he’s dead now. Kick out the trespassers, so that we may better support our troops. Lead us not into devolution, but deliver this to Murdoch. For his is the executive of the millionaires, at least until the investigation concludes. Amen. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/11 "2012-04-25T13:51:36Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Have you heard of rescission? Terminating coverage for people who are sick when it is found out that they made a minor error when applying for insurance? Like they are denied treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago. Perfectly legal. I’ll make you a deal. If you can find me a single documented case of a person being denied treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago, I will never again attack government-sponsored health care in any way, shape, or manner on these boards. And if you can’t, you agree to stop attacking the opponents of the issue with made-up stories. I might be surprised, I grant you. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/12 "2012-04-25T14:03:35Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’ll make you a deal. > > If you can find me a single documented case of a person being denied treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago, I will never again attack government-sponsored health care in any way, shape, or manner on these boards. > > And if you can’t, you agree to stop attacking the opponents of the issue with made-up stories. > > I might be surprised, I grant you. I’m going to guess that **EP** meant “insurance coverage for treatment for a heart attack” rather than actual emergency treatment. Of course, the old joke about having another heart attack when one gets the bill may apply here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/13 "2012-04-25T14:32:53Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I’m going to guess that **EP** meant “insurance coverage for treatment for a heart attack” rather than actual emergency treatment. Of course, the old joke about having another heart attack when one gets the bill may apply here. Fair point. Same offer: find me a single documented case of a person being denied insurance coverage for treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago, I’ll forever after refraining from saying what a poor idea I believe government-paid or mandated health care is, and if not, **EP** promises to never again attack the reverse of the issue with made up stories. It’s a good bet. I have to shut up completely if I lose; **EP** just has to stick to truthful claims and eschew hyperbole. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/14 "2012-04-25T14:35:04Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > I called up the NHS helpline in the wee small hours of Saturday night/Sunday morning and got an GP appointment for my daughter that day. On a _Sunday_. **Easter** Sunday. > > And then we went to a pharmacy to get her medicine. Which is _free_ for under-18s. > > Won’t someone please save us from this oppression? Our usual tool for spreading freedom around the world is a bombing campaign. Please provide your coordinates, and we will have a predator drone sent your way immediately. This service is provided 24/7, no waiting. Thanks for your business and we hope you’ll consider using the US Military Industrial Complex for all your liberation needs in the future. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/15 "2012-04-25T14:42:09Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fair point. Same offer: find me a single documented case of a person being denied insurance coverage for treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago, I’ll forever after refraining from saying what a poor idea I believe government-paid or mandated health care is, and if not, **EP** promises to never again attack the reverse of the issue with made up stories. > > It’s a good bet. I have to shut up completely if I lose; **EP** just has to stick to truthful claims and eschew hyperbole. My WAG is that it may have come from a woman who had a previous (not current) history of acne and rapid heartbeat, whose insurance company dropped her [when she needed an immediate double mastectomy](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105680875). I suspect the mentions of acne and heart issues were muddled in memory. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/16 "2012-04-25T14:46:22Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’ll make you a deal. > > If you can find me a single documented case of a person being denied treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago, I will never again attack government-sponsored health care in any way, shape, or manner on these boards. > > And if you can’t, you agree to stop attacking the opponents of the issue with made-up stories. > > I might be surprised, I grant you. I’m deeply sorry for being that specific about rescission. Certainly, having acne is [[http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-19/politics/begala.health.care\_1\_health-insurance-health-care-coverage?\_s=PM:POLITICS](http://articles.cnn.com/2009-06-19/politics/begala.health.care_1_health-insurance-health-care-coverage?_s=PM:POLITICS)]one of the reasons that companies use to cut insurance off Sorry - in this case, she was denied treatment for breast cancer, rather than for treatment for a heart attack. Mea culpa, you were right and I was wrong. People are cut off their insurance for failing to disclose minor ailments in their past. They are then denied treatment for serious illness. I’m so very fucking sorry for turning a general tragedy into a specific “story” How about some more general facts about rescission? Would that be acceptable to your nit-picking style? Here are some choice quotes from the [LA times](http://articles.latimes.com/2009/jun/17/business/fi-rescind17): > [@](#): > > An investigation by the House Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations showed that health insurers WellPoint Inc., UnitedHealth Group and Assurant Inc. canceled the coverage of more than 20,000 people, allowing the companies to avoid paying more than $300 million in medical claims over a five-year period. > [@](#): > > (Healthcare executives) would not commit to limiting rescissions to only policyholders who intentionally lie or commit fraud to obtain coverage, a refusal that met with dismay from legislators on both sides of the political aisle. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/17 "2012-04-25T14:48:12Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’ll make you a deal. > > If you can find me a single documented case of a person being denied treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago, I will never again attack government-sponsored health care in any way, shape, or manner on these boards. > > And if you can’t, you agree to stop attacking the opponents of the issue with made-up stories. > > I might be surprised, I grant you. Do you need that specific example cited or will similar ones do? [ebookbrowse.com - ebookbrowse Resources and Information.](http://ebookbrowse.com/rescission-supplemental-pdf-d140580176) ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/18 "2012-04-25T14:52:11Z")
[More examples](http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2009/09/15/60852/meet-your-insurance-company-executive-rescission/?mobile=nc) > [@](#): > > As the former Cigna executive explains, rescission is the insurance industry practice of finding reasons — even reasons as flimsy as typos on your enrollment form — to cancel your coverage when you get sick. > > \ > > Woman Denied Coverage For Gall Bladder Surgery Because Of Husband’s High Cholesterol. Washington Post: “In a pending case, Blue Shield searched in vain for an inconsistency in the health records of the wife of a dairy farmer after she filed a claim for emergency gallbladder surgery, according to attorneys for the family. Turning to her husband’s questionnaire, the company discovered he had not mentioned his high cholesterol and dropped them both. Let the Bricker wriggling, nit-picking and arm-waving begin. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/19 "2012-04-25T14:53:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Our usual tool for spreading freedom around the world is a bombing campaign. Please provide your coordinates, and we will have a predator drone sent your way immediately. This service is provided 24/7, no waiting. Thanks for your business and we hope you’ll consider using the US Military Industrial Complex for all your liberation needs in the future. This is the CIA Helpline. If your school or hospital was accidentally bombed, press 1. If a wedding or funeral was bombed, press 2. For cases of unexploded ordinance near a wildlife habitat, press 3. If a drone landed by accident in your country and you now have possession of it, press 4. For all other issues press 5. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/20 "2012-04-25T14:55:25Z")
[http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105680875](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=105680875) > [@](#): > > Hamm’s insurance company rescinded the policy of Otto Raddatz after he was diagnosed with lymphoma. Raddatz had not told the company about a CT scan by a now-retired doctor that showed gallstones and a weakened blood vessel. > > That’s because he didn’t know about the findings, his sister Peggy Raddatz, an attorney, testified. She spent weeks on the phone and ended up at the Illinois Attorney General’s office, which began an investigation. The retired doctor turned out to be off on a fishing trip. > > "Luckily, they were able to find the doctor, who was able to say, ‘Yes, I never discussed those issues with him; they were very minor,’ " Raddatz testifed. > > … > > One of Barton’s constituents, Robin Beaton of Waxahachie, Texas, did know that her health history included acne and a rapid heartbeat. But she didn’t think they were relevant to her current health and left them off her application. > > After she was diagnosed with breast cancer and was scheduled for a double mastectomy, her insurer cancelled her policy, leaving her devastated. That took all of two minutes. Of course, neither example is specifically about acne medication and a heart attack, so I doubt **Bricker** sees them as sufficient evidence. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855.md?page=2)