# All you poor, deluded sufferers of communist health care in Europe, take heart **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 24, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855 "2012-04-24T22:56:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/81 "2012-04-26T08:56:23Z")
> [@jasg](#): > > Hold down the [alt](http://tlt.its.psu.edu/suggestions/international/accents/codealt.html) key and type 0163 šŸ™‚ (or option 3 on the Mac. Ā£) Or just write GBP. USD, GBP, EUR ā€¦ why bother with funny symbols? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/82 "2012-04-26T09:00:25Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > There are cases of partial denial of treatment, but in Spain I know of one: google ā€œaitana taponesā€ to get a ton of hits about her (all in Spanish). [This one](http://www.digital-factory.es/ayudaaitana) is very complete. There have been similar cases in the UK where someone with a very, very rare condition requiring very, very expensive specialist treatment is unable to get the procedure done on the NHS and has to go elsewhere (often the US) for it. I recall one a few years back where Simon Cowell (yes, \*that \*Simon Cowell) heard about a child in such circumstances where the parents were fundraising for the treatment and he gave them the remainder of the money they needs (IIRC something like Ā£250,000). But these are so unusual that they make the newspapers; the whole ā€œspaghetti dinners to fund cancer treatmentā€ is not a thing here. And no one is arguing about whether _if you have the money_ US healthcare is among the best in the world, any more than if you have the money you can get the best schools, food, housing, security etc. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/83 "2012-04-26T10:16:40Z")
Oh yeah, my sister was born with cysts on one of her lungs and was sent to Great Ormond Street Hospital, where they removed two lobes of her lung and she made a full recovery. Sheā€™s completely healthy now and her lung actually grew back somehow. While GOSH requires private funding, all services provided were free to the sufferer. I donā€™t think my family could have afforded to pay for my sisterā€™s care had they lived in the US. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/84 "2012-04-26T12:44:13Z")
I honestly struggle to understand how even the most vehement of right wingers can feel that the US system is the best way. As a nation, you spend the highest proportion of GDP on healthcare. Yet you place 38th in life expectancy. Living in the UK, the cost of my healthcare received will be half of an American male, but the odds say Iā€™ll live a year and a half longer? If I was living in Sweden, Iā€™d be expected to live 3 years longer. When presented with multiple examples of state healthcare that is cheaper and more effective than your current system, how can you argue that social healthcare is a bad idea? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/85 "2012-04-26T12:57:46Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I honestly struggle to understand how even the most vehement of right wingers can feel that the US system is the best way. > > As a nation, you spend the highest proportion of GDP on healthcare. Yet you place 38th in life expectancy. Living in the UK, the cost of my healthcare received will be half of an American male, but the odds say Iā€™ll live a year and a half longer? If I was living in Sweden, Iā€™d be expected to live 3 years longer. > > When presented with multiple examples of state healthcare that is cheaper and more effective than your current system, how can you argue that social healthcare is a bad idea? You make a compelling argument but in rebuttal let me offer the following: **Youā€™re a socialist, lol!** _ **U-S-A!!! U-S-A!!! U-S-A!!! U-S-A!!!** _ The defense rests. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/86 "2012-04-26T13:23:56Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > And no one is arguing about whether _if you have the money_ US healthcare is among the best in the world, any more than if you have the money you can get the best schools, food, housing, security etc. Oh, but itā€™s not, not necessarily. When RocĆ­o Durcal (a Spanish singer and former child actress who was living in Mexico) found out she had cancer, she first went to Houston. After asking a bit, she was told that she could get the exact same treatments in Spain - since she still had her old Madrid flat, she relocated back. When my classmate Beaā€™s father had brain cancer, one of the doctors who treated him was an American who was studying in Pamplona to learn techniques developed there (he was one of the interns). Whenā€¦ US healthcare is the best when it happens to be the best and if you have the money. Other countries are the best at other times, and you need either the money or to be a resident. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/87 "2012-04-26T13:47:52Z")
> [@Max\_the\_Immortal](#): > > To be fair, you apparently proposed the bet because you were skeptical that coverage for treatment of an aliment _as grievous as_ a heart attack would be denied because of something _as trivial as_ forgetting to mention having taken acne medication. No, you didnā€™t use the term ā€œas grievous asā€ in the actual bet, but you didnā€™t use the term ā€œcoverageā€ in your original draft either and were perfectly willing to change the letter of the bet to match its spirit in that case. We can only speculate whether or not you would have proposed the same sort of bet if **Euphonious Polemic** had remembered that it was treatment for breast cancer and not a heart attack, but surely you can see why people have a gripe with your determination. I probably would have changed it again, yes. But if the issue had simply been coverage, I would have denied losing it (before I changed it) and acknowledged losing it (after I changed it).. Iā€™m not sure what kind of wagering youā€™ve done in your life, but can you offer up any examples of gaming systems where one can win, or lose, a bet based on what terms the bettor might have agreed to but didnā€™t actually agree to? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/88 "2012-04-26T14:04:59Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Iā€™m not sure what kind of wagering youā€™ve done in your life, but can you offer up any examples of gaming systems where one can win, or lose, a bet based on what terms the bettor might have agreed to but didnā€™t actually agree to? Almost all of them. The house sets the rules. The bettorā€™s understanding of them is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/89 "2012-04-26T14:07:35Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Itā€™s hard for me to believe that someone would make the point you made due to legitimate ignorance. It requires ignorance of something so well-publicized that it strikes me more as a zealous commitment to ignoring reality. So well-publicized? [Here is a cite](http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500202_162-20076636.html) to the claim that almost half the people in this country didnā€™t know the US declared independence from Great Britain in 1776. I canā€™t tell for sure, but that story is probably more publicized than the acne one, wouldnā€™t you say? Hereā€™s [a cite](http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/12/obama-voters-democrats-republicans-opinions-contributors-ilya-somin.html) to the claim that in November 2008 almost 60% of Obama voters did not know that the Democrats then had control of Congress. Again, I donā€™t know where the acne story broke, but I am confident that the Democrats have control of Congress was more widely publicized. Yes, I follow news more than the people on the wrong sides of those questions. but, somehow, shockingly, I missed the big acne story. Probably that was the day the dog shredded the paper. What fucking bad luck! The day the Post carries the acne story on page A1 above the folds, and thatā€™s the day Fido gets a hankering for newsprint. Seriously - are you out of your fucking mind? The acne story was so well-publicized that the only way to miss it was to be willfully ignorant?? You could send a pollster out to any city in this country and start asking people and not one in fifty would know that there was an incident involving acne medication and denial of treatment. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/90 "2012-04-26T14:18:37Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Almost all of them. The house sets the rules. The bettorā€™s understanding of them is irrelevant. Again: Iā€™m not sure what kind of wagering youā€™ve done in your life, but can you offer up any examples of gaming systems where one can win, or lose, a bet based on what terms the bettor might have agreed to but didnā€™t actually agree to? What you wrote doesnā€™t respond to that. When the house sets the rules, the bettor ACTUALLY AGREES to those rules. In the ā€œhouseā€ theyā€™re written down. Everyone can see them. Here, too, they were written down. Everyone can see them. So, too, that was done here. To refresh your recollection: - Same offer: find me a single documented case of a person being denied insurance coverage for treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago, Iā€™ll forever after refraining from saying what a poor idea I believe government-paid or mandated health care is, and if not, EP promises to never again attack the reverse of the issue with made up stories. \* Have you, or anyone, found me a single documented case of a person being denied insurance coverage for treatment for a heart attack because they forgot to say they took acne medication years ago? Thatā€™s what I agreed to. Thatā€™s what EP agreed to. To his credit, he hasnā€™t tried to say I lost. He has said, and I said, that even though I didnā€™t lose, the larger point I was making was wrong. If you bet on a horse to win, and at the end of the race its eight lengths in front of every other horse, and clearly going to win, and then it is shot by a sniper and dies, THE HORSE DOESNā€™T WIN. You can say how obvious it is that the horse would have won, and I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/91 "2012-04-26T14:20:48Z")
Can we just drop the whole Bricker/Bet topic. Heā€™s gone as far as heā€™s likely to. Heā€™s admitted the claim was correct in principle, but said was sufficiently inaccurate in specifics to make the bet null & void. You all know heā€™s not going to suddenly admit he was wrong, and that the bet stands. So please, letā€™s move on and focus on the key subject of this thread: taking the piss out of the USA for its comically inefficient healthcare setup. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/92 "2012-04-26T14:23:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > So well-publicized? > > [Here is a cite](http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500202_162-20076636.html) to the claim that almost half the people in this country didnā€™t know the US declared independence from Great Britain in 1776. > > I canā€™t tell for sure, but that story is probably more publicized than the acne one, wouldnā€™t you say? I would expect that someone commenting on policy would make an effort to be more informed than the average couch-tuber. > [@](#): > > Hereā€™s [a cite](http://www.forbes.com/2010/02/12/obama-voters-democrats-republicans-opinions-contributors-ilya-somin.html) to the claim that in November 2008 almost 60% of Obama voters did not know that the Democrats then had control of Congress. This is probably confused by the fact that the Republicans waged an unprecedented war of filibustering, so what, in other administrations, would have been control of congress, was worth nearly nothing. Just a small example of how the outright uncivil combativeness of the Republicans confuses an issue. If you heard news story after news story about how Senate Republicans stopped bill after bill, would you, if you were a low-information voter, assume Dems had control? The very fact that you use this as an example shows that you are more than happy to distort or confuse issues to get your way. You know, or at least you should have, that the Repubs were epic-obstructionist, but you still slipped it in, presumably to try and slide a partisan stab at Obamaā€™s perceived ineffectiveness. > [@](#): > > Again, I donā€™t know where the acne story broke, but I am confident that the Democrats have control of Congress was more widely publicized. > > Yes, I follow news more than the people on the wrong sides of those questions. but, somehow, shockingly, I missed the big acne story. Probably that was the day the dog shredded the paper. What fucking bad luck! The day the Post carries the acne story on page A1 above the folds, and thatā€™s the day Fido gets a hankering for newsprint. > > Seriously - are you out of your fucking mind? The acne story was so well-publicized that the only way to miss it was to be willfully ignorant?? You could send a pollster out to any city in this country and start asking people and not one in fifty would know that there was an incident involving acne medication and denial of treatment. Maybe if you donā€™t understand what youā€™re talking about, you should shut the fuck up and learn about it before taking sides? Although, that would require that you donā€™t immediately fly to the defense of whatever ideological conservative is being discussed, in all circumstances. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/93 "2012-04-26T14:25:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I probably would have changed it again, yes. But if the issue had simply been coverage, I would have denied losing it (before I changed it) and acknowledged losing it (after I changed it).. > > Iā€™m not sure what kind of wagering youā€™ve done in your life, but can you offer up any examples of gaming systems where one can win, or lose, a bet based on what terms the bettor might have agreed to but didnā€™t actually agree to? While weā€™re on the subject of wagering, it is customary for both parties to agree to a bet. I did not agree with your terms. Ever. So I guess you can claim that you won your proposal. The bigger picture in this thread is: There is a profit motive in the method of insuring healthcare in the United States. A free-market profit driven business model is frequently a good thing, and can deliver good service at a competitive price. In the case of health care insurance however, a profit-driven system has drawbacks that can be very serious. When a private company breaks a contract with you, you have the ability to sue them or otherwise get recompense for the broken contract. You are ā€œmade wholeā€. This is great when a company fails to paint your house properly, or a company backs out of a booking for a wedding hall. However, if a private health insurer renegs on a contract, or denies you coverage that you are entitled to, or otherwise illegally conducts business to increase their profitsā€¦ then your very life is affected. You may lose your life, or drastically shorten it. You cannot be ā€œmade wholeā€ by suing. What for-profit companies seem to be doing is regularly denying claims or performing rescission, or delaying claims in order to increase profits. If they are ā€œcaughtā€ then they (reluctantly) pay the claim. The result is that people do not get timely treatment, which negatively affects their health. All for the sake of increased profits for the company. This is a major problem in the US system. It is a problem that should be addressed. These cases do happen. Regularly. This is what the discussion should be about. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/94 "2012-04-26T14:46:25Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Seriously - are you out of your fucking mind? The acne story was so well-publicized that the only way to miss it was to be willfully ignorant?? You could send a pollster out to any city in this country and start asking people and not one in fifty would know that there was an incident involving acne medication and denial of treatment. You read this board, right? [How Will Current HC Bill Help Me?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=539157) [ā€œPreexisting Medical Conditionā€ ā€“ As Of When? How Do They Find Out?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=601925) [I did not know this about health insurance companies](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531887) [A worldwide health care poll](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=560174&page=2) [Well, the Democrats just threw me under a bus with healthcare.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=549373) [Medical Insurance and Pre-existing Conditions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=589007) [Rational healthcare debate - politics free zone](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531571) [Sarah Palin proven right! Government tricks beautiful young mom; imposes 1st Death Panel Verdict](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=559440&page=15) [Conservative opinion on US health care](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=525946) [Document exposes what the RNC really thinks of its donors, admits to using ā€œfear.ā€](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=554616&page=3) Every single one of those thread either discusses or references the Beaton acne/breast cancer case. Weā€™ve been talking about this here for a long time. Those were just on the first page of results; I figured Iā€™d found enough. And Iā€™ll admit I didnā€™t search names through every thread, but I notice you posted in at least one of those. While EVERYONE in the country might be excused for not knowing about this case, you donā€™t really have that excuse yourself. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/95 "2012-04-26T14:49:40Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Again: Iā€™m not sure what kind of wagering youā€™ve done in your life, but can you offer up any examples of gaming systems where one can win, or lose, a bet based on what terms the bettor might have agreed to but didnā€™t actually agree to? Easy big fella. I was just pointing out some ambiguity in your statement by using the term ā€˜mightā€™ to describe the state of agreement. It doesnā€™t really describe real world situations where a resolution is always based on agreement or non-agreement, and canā€™t be a one-sided affair. Iā€™m sure you know a contract requires a meeting of the minds, and the introduction of ā€˜mightsā€™ and ā€˜maybesā€™ means thereā€™s been no agreement. But whether you actively agree to the terms of a casino or not, theyā€™ve set the rules. Iā€™m not referring to your prior bet, which is up to you and the other party to resolve, and wasnā€™t conducted according to anyoneā€™s known rules. And I agree that your original statement was not refuted based on itā€™s literal interpretation. And you did the stand-up thing by admitting that there was an illustration of the point even if it didnā€™t match the terms of the bet. A better example of a horse race is a disqualification. Your horse could come in 8 lengths ahead of all the others, clearing winning the race according to a simple observation. But the stewards can end up disqualifying the horse for a variety of reasons, and then by the rules, the horse did not win, nor did you. Much easier to bribe a race official than to hire a sniper. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/96 "2012-04-26T15:33:33Z")
> [@Jenaroph](#): > > You read this board, right? > > [How Will Current HC Bill Help Me?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=539157) > > [ā€œPreexisting Medical Conditionā€ ā€“ As Of When? How Do They Find Out?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=601925) > > [I did not know this about health insurance companies](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531887) > > [A worldwide health care poll](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=560174&page=2) > > [Well, the Democrats just threw me under a bus with healthcare.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=549373) > > [Medical Insurance and Pre-existing Conditions](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=589007) > > [Rational healthcare debate - politics free zone](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=531571) > > [Sarah Palin proven right! Government tricks beautiful young mom; imposes 1st Death Panel Verdict](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=559440&page=15) > > [Conservative opinion on US health care](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=525946) > > [Document exposes what the RNC really thinks of its donors, admits to using ā€œfear.ā€](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=554616&page=3) > > Every single one of those thread either discusses or references the Beaton acne/breast cancer case. Weā€™ve been talking about this here for a long time. Those were just on the first page of results; I figured Iā€™d found enough. > > And Iā€™ll admit I didnā€™t search names through every thread, but I notice you posted in at least one of those. > > While EVERYONE in the country might be excused for not knowing about this case, you donā€™t really have that excuse yourself. I didnā€™t know about the case. Or if I did, I had forgotten. Not everyone has the same things in his brain that you do. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/97 "2012-04-26T16:05:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didnā€™t know about the case. Or if I did, I had forgotten. Not everyone has the same things in his brain that you do. I donā€™t find that he didnā€™t know about this specific case, odd. However, not knowing about rescission is a little odd. It featured quite predominantly in the news for a quite a while. Not that that means anything. Just found it a little odd. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/98 "2012-04-26T16:40:16Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > I honestly struggle to understand how even the most vehement of right wingers can feel that the US system is the best way. > > As a nation, you spend the highest proportion of GDP on healthcare. Yet you place 38th in life expectancy. Living in the UK, the cost of my healthcare received will be half of an American male, but the odds say Iā€™ll live a year and a half longer? If I was living in Sweden, Iā€™d be expected to live 3 years longer. > > When presented with multiple examples of state healthcare that is cheaper and more effective than your current system, how can you argue that social healthcare is a bad idea? I think they are basically three groups (with some overlap) who are in opposition. [ol] [li]Those who are ideologically opposed to government sponsored healthcare regardless of facts.[/li][li]Insurance companies and others who benefit financially from the current system. This would include politicians who benefit from donations or expect a job in the industry when they leave congress.[/li][li]Those whoā€™ve been taken in by propaganda generated by 1 and 2 about ā€œdeath panelsā€, long waiting times, etc.[/li][/ol] ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/99 "2012-04-26T16:52:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I didnā€™t know about the case. Or if I did, I had forgotten. Not everyone has the same things in his brain that you do. Guess **Bricker** [forgot about it](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=12193530&postcount=155) too. To be fair, he dismissed the anecdote as ā€œpure bunkā€ two years ago, so itā€™s been a while. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2012, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855/100 "2012-04-26T17:02:03Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > I think they are basically three groups (with some overlap) who are in opposition. > [ol] > [li]Those who are ideologically opposed to government sponsored healthcare regardless of facts.[/li][li]Insurance companies and others who benefit financially from the current system. This would include politicians who benefit from donations or expect a job in the industry when they leave congress.[/li][li]Those whoā€™ve been taken in by propaganda generated by 1 and 2 about ā€œdeath panelsā€, long waiting times, etc.[/li][/ol] 1. Fading, but still a factor, the racism of several that know that this will benefit also minorities, a factor that almost derailed the GI-Bill back then. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-poor-deluded-sufferers-of-communist-health-care-in-europe-take-heart/619855.md?page=6)