# All you Zimmerman-lovers in the Great Debates thread are... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 8, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470 "2012-06-08T04:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2012, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/241 "2012-06-28T23:54:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You, also, are more dangerous than Zimmerman could ever be. Worst fucking equivocation ever. Has pikey pete ever shot anyone? No? Then demonstrate how he could take 60 years from the average US lifespan. Go on. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/242 "2012-06-29T00:20:26Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Worst fucking equivocation ever. Has pikey pete ever shot anyone? No? Then demonstrate how he could take 60 years from the average US lifespan. Go on. You don’t see how punishing people who’ve not been convicted of a crime is dangerous to everyone? Simple. You, or him, or me, or anyone could be next. Also, I said nothing about taking 60 years from the average US lifespan - where the fuck did that come from? Unless you actually think that, unless he’s locked up for life, Zimmerman will kill EVERY SINGLE PERSON in America… ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/243 "2012-06-29T02:42:12Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > this, I agree with (mostly) > > This, I don’t - we should “protect” our society / community (no I don’t know exactly what this means either). If we don’t do this, then what point is it being a part of a community? > > I think George went about it all wrong, but in general, we do need to step forward and take a role in stopping bad things around us. Which means that, in general, if you see something bad happening you do something about it. yeah, the problem is that so often people interfere when they are not fully appraised of the facts of the situation. that just leads to more problems and sometimes needless deaths. ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2012, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/244 "2012-06-29T02:51:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, he shouldn’t. You, also, are more dangerous than Zimmerman could ever be. > > That’s irrelevant, as stupidity isn’t illegal, the dispatcher didn’t tell Zimmerman to stay in his car, and even had he, he has no authority. > > Agreed, it was stupid of Martin to confront Zimmerman. That is what you’re referring to, right? > > How about when they carry them to defend from unprovoked attacks? Again, it would be more helpful if you’d address what actually happened, rather than showering everyone with bullshit based on ignorant prejudices. > > That, however, would have been illegal. Also impossible in this case, as it was a close range fight where Martin was on top of Zimmerman. He had no opportunity to get his assailant at distance. > > That’s the first sensible thing you’ve said. > > Lucky you. I hope that, if ever you are the victim of an unprovoked attack, you have some means to defend yourself. > > There is no such thing as criminally stupid. I know there is no such thing as criminal stupidity. It’s me venting my ire. jeez, this aint GD. Oh, and point of reference, I was the victim of an unprovoked attack. My youngest brother took a knife in the carotid saving me. Rather than allow fear and anger to control me, and carrying a gun as a steel security blanket, I instead learned to identify and avoid suspicious situations and locations. It has served me well ever since, even when I was an embedded journalist in Afghanistan. Knowledge, foresight, and being calm goes a lot farther than a gun in keeping you safe. I understand your opinions, but they don’t really seem to be formed from a base of personal knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/245 "2012-06-30T21:24:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You don’t see how punishing people who’ve not been convicted of a crime is dangerous to everyone? Ever considered working for FIFA? You could be a professional goalpost shifter. You said _he_ was more dangerous than Zimmerman. Not people for whom evidence should be less important than political considerations. Which 1. isn’t even what he propounded and 2. makes no fucking difference when people are spewing off opinions on message boards. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/246 "2012-07-01T02:45:08Z")
> [@pikey\_pete](#): > > Knowledge, foresight, and being calm goes a lot farther than a gun in keeping you safe. I understand your opinions, but they don’t really seem to be formed from a base of personal knowledge. Exactly. Zim’s supporters here seem like a bunch of overweight armchair conservatives whose martial arts and firearms training consists of schoolyard fights and shooting at cans with a .22. I mean, no offense, but any good handgun-safety instructor will tell you to do everything you can to avoid using that gun, _including_ using your common sense and staying calm. Those talking like Zim did something SMART are proving themselves novices in the areas of self-defense and firearm safety. Either that or they’re trolling. I hope trolling. It’s sad when people are ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/247 "2012-07-01T10:15:13Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Exactly. Zim’s supporters here seem like a bunch of overweight armchair conservatives whose martial arts and firearms training consists of schoolyard fights and shooting at cans with a .22. > > I mean, no offense, but any good handgun-safety instructor will tell you to do everything you can to avoid using that gun, _including_ using your common sense and staying calm. Those talking like Zim did something SMART are proving themselves novices in the areas of self-defense and firearm safety. So, taking a beating for a while before pulling his gun doesn’t count as waiting to use it now? Should he have waited longer whilst Martin was attacking him? ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/248 "2012-07-01T12:38:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, taking a beating for a while before pulling his gun doesn’t count as waiting to use it now? Should he have waited longer whilst Martin was attacking him? Any good handgun instructor would _never_ get himself into this kind of a situation. Common sense says you don’t follow someone at night, through a subdivision, on foot, unless you know there’s actual evidence of wrongdoing, and _very cautiously_ even then. Dimmy was _obviously_ not being cautious. The only thing stopping you from agreeing with me _on that particular point_ is that Trayvon was black. You, hilariously, and sadly, are either lacking the imagination to imagine the situation differently in your mind, or are simply unwilling to admit to me that you are a racist. Anyone reading the thread with half a lick of sense, and an unbiased point of view, understands this. Which are you lacking? The sense, or the unbiased point of view? Answer this, if you will: What evidence did Dimmy have re: Trayvon that warranted getting out of his vehicle and following on foot, at night, in the rain? Remember, the cops were already on their way. I can maybe understand following in the car, under these circumstances. Getting out and following on foot? That’s just not the result of good gun training or common sense. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/249 "2012-07-01T12:41:46Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So, taking a beating for a while before pulling his gun doesn’t count as waiting to use it now? Should he have waited longer whilst Martin was attacking him? The fact that Dimmy got himself in that situation is proof that he is an idiot who also has had no good handgun training. _This is not ideal_. Untrained fools roaming with guns? How is THAT a good thing? People like that don’t need concealed-carry permits. People like that don’t need guns outside their home at all, except long guns for hunting, and even _then_ I have concerns, specifically for a fool as big as Dimmy. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/250 "2012-07-01T14:02:15Z")
So Zimmerman did something, or several things, that were stupid. That doesn’t remove his right to self defence. Just to clear up some points you still don’t seem to understand, following someone isn’t illegal. Asking them what they are doing isn’t illegal. Calling the police if they feel someone is acting suspiciously isn’t illegal. Concealed carry of a gun isn’t illegal, assuming you have the right permit, which Zimmerman had. Shooting and killing someone who has put you in a position to fear death or serious injury isn’t illegal. Attacking someone without provocation _is_ illegal. Of course Zimmerman shouldn’t have got himself into this situation. The broken nose is proof enough of that. Also, Martin shouldn’t have got himself into this situation. That his actions caused _his death_ should be proof of that! Both of them were stupid. Only one of them, based on the evidence we actually have, might have acted criminally, and it’s not Zimmerman. “Might have”, because there’s no way to prove it. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/251 "2012-07-01T14:55:41Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > So Zimmerman did something, or several things, that were stupid. That doesn’t remove his right to self defence. > > Just to clear up some points you still don’t seem to understand, following someone isn’t illegal. Asking them what they are doing isn’t illegal. Calling the police if they feel someone is acting suspiciously isn’t illegal. Concealed carry of a gun isn’t illegal, assuming you have the right permit, which Zimmerman had. Shooting and killing someone who has put you in a position to fear death or serious injury isn’t illegal. > > Attacking someone without provocation _is_ illegal. > > Of course Zimmerman shouldn’t have got himself into this situation. The broken nose is proof enough of that. Also, Martin shouldn’t have got himself into this situation. That his actions caused _his death_ should be proof of that! > > Both of them were stupid. Only one of them, based on the evidence we actually have, might have acted criminally, and it’s not Zimmerman. “Might have”, because there’s no way to prove it. Fuck off, racist. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2012, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/252 "2012-07-01T15:58:06Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Fuck off, racist. No. I won’t fuck off, because I know I’m right, and more to the point so do you, as you would actually refute my points if you didn’t. It’s clear to everyone that there’s no racial element in this case, and no racial element to the Florida laws involved. Ad hominem attacks never help your case anyway, but when they’re demonstrably false, you just look like a twat. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/253 "2012-07-02T03:41:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …It’s clear to everyone that there’s no racial element in this case… First off, it doesn’t matter whether Dimmy is a racist. I actually don’t think he is. I think he’s a fool with a gun, and that’s just never good for anyone. But more to the point, YOU ARE a racist. Anybody who’s smart enough to NOT buy my oceanfront property in Utah can see that your opinion on this case would be different if Trayvon were white. You know it, I know it, and anybody who didn’t fall off the turnip truck yesterday knows it. Just admit it. Goddamn. It would be more honest. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/254 "2012-07-02T04:14:42Z")
So, anyone who disagrees with you must be stupid and racist. Fine arguments you’ve got there. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2012, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/255 "2012-07-02T22:26:48Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > Fuck off, racist. [Moderating] **al27052** , note that some insults are not allowed against other posters, as detailed [in this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) Please avoid doing this again in the future. No warning issued. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/256 "2012-07-03T00:44:04Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > [Moderating] > **al27052** , note that some insults are not allowed against other posters, as detailed [in this thread.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=508858) Please avoid doing this again in the future. > > No warning issued. > [/Moderating] You know, I BAN racists on my message boards. This place is pretty unique in tolerating their bile. ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2012, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/257 "2012-07-03T13:09:36Z")
Another dead horse thread. Ive noticed there are alot of these on this message board. Just curious, since this thread is also about racism, should it be merged? BTW, Martin was as guilty as Zimmerman. Zimmerman just had the gun. It kind of reminds me of the scene in Untouchables when Connery talks about an Italian being stupid for bringing a knife to a gun fight… ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/258 "2012-07-06T01:00:57Z")
> [@dngnb8](#): > > BTW, Martin was as guilty as Zimmerman. Zimmerman just had the gun… And Zimmerman was 10 years older, and BOTH of those facts make him the more at-fault party. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/259 "2012-07-06T14:48:43Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > And Zimmerman was 10 years older, and BOTH of those facts make him the more at-fault party. This isn’t really a good argument, but look at Zimmerman’s behavior after the event, that reveals IMO a WHOLE LOT about him. ---
**Author:** ![pikey\_pete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pikey\_pete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pikey_pete)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2012, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/260 "2012-07-06T20:23:27Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No. I won’t fuck off, because I know I’m right, and more to the point so do you, as you would actually refute my points if you didn’t. > > It’s clear to everyone that there’s no racial element in this case, and no racial element to the Florida laws involved. Ad hominem attacks never help your case anyway, but when they’re demonstrably false, you just look like a twat. just to clarify something: opinions are neither right nor wrong. Some are more valid than others. This validity is gained through in-depth research or personal experience. You, Steophan, obviously have no personal experience and have done no research, ergo you opinions lack a certain amount of validity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470.md?page=12)