# All you Zimmerman-lovers in the Great Debates thread are... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 8, 2012, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470 "2012-06-08T04:05:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/61 "2012-06-09T06:14:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > There were way more than 5 calls to “911” (they were mostly to non-emergency number, including the last one) that Zimmerman made, and they definitely were not all about suspicious black people. I remember there were suspicious whites and suspicious Hispanics. Don’t think there were any suspicious Asians though. Maybe Zimmerman is a secret Asian supremacist. The non-black suspect calls were all with cause…e.g. he saw someone with a slim jim (they were locked out of their car) Every call he made that was just on pure speculation were black, does that mean he is racist, no but if you look at the demographics in that area it is a pretty good indication he was profiling.. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/62 "2012-06-09T06:14:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > …to call the police on people fitting the profile of suspected criminals without being criticised for it… You really need to think this one over. Seriously, no kidding around. This is not a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/63 "2012-06-09T06:21:16Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > To be fair, he didn’t say he got all of his information from those sources; only that he got some of his information from them. > > (Sorry, this is a sensitive point of form for me…) Right; the rest of his information on racial interaction between blacks and hispanics he got from those “three or four people” he’s talked to. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/64 "2012-06-09T06:22:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You really need to think this one over. Seriously, no kidding around. This is not a good idea. No, I don’t. It’s absolutely right, if there have been burglaries committed in your area by young black men, to call the police if you see a young black man acting suspiciously, such as walking slowly in the rain looking closely at houses in the area. The same would, of course, apply to middle-aged white women, or any other demographic you care to mention. If you think people should willingly be victims of crime due to political correctness, you are a fucking moron. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/65 "2012-06-09T06:23:48Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > The non-black suspect calls were all with cause…e.g. he saw someone with a slim jim (they were locked out of their car) > > Every call he made that was just on pure speculation were black, does that mean he is racist, no but if you look at the demographics in that area it is a pretty good indication he was profiling.. The call about Trayvon Martin was not pure speculation, it was based on observed suspicious behaviour. That those suspicions turned out to be false doesn’t mean he was wrong to have them. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/66 "2012-06-09T06:30:54Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The call about Trayvon Martin was not pure speculation, it was based on observed suspicious behaviour. That those suspicions turned out to be false doesn’t mean he was wrong to have them. Getting in out of the rain was suspicious? Or do you have access to no public information? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/67 "2012-06-09T06:33:25Z")
> [@](#): > > …you are a fucking moron. No, but what I am is a guy who has been hassled by cops because someone decided I looked suspicious. And I know that the minor irritation I dealt with is chickenfeed compared to the daily life of a young black men. I also know its wrong. And even a moron doesn’t need to know more. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/68 "2012-06-09T06:35:19Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > I’m on the side of people being allowed to defend themselves against vicious, unprovoked attacks without being effectively tried and convicted by the media, and also on the side of people being allowed to call the police on people fitting the profile of suspected criminals without being criticised for it. > > While we’re at it, I’m on the side of people being judged on the actual evidence, not on vague feelings people have about “what must have happened”, and applying the actual laws whether you agree with them or not. > > On the latter two situations, that puts me firmly on Zimmerman’s side, and I think anyone who disagrees is far more dangerous than any individual murderer, as they put everyone at risk by ignoring the process of law. As for the first, it will depend if his story holds up. Translation: Speaking as a reactionary, right-wing gun nut, I fully support Zimmerman even though I have no idea what happened that night. I will blindly accept the self-serving account of the shooter even though it defies logic. It does not trouble me at all that the cops didn’t believe Zimmerman’s account because Martin was a hardcore thug and he deserved to be profiled, stalked, harassed and shot. He should have run home faster, like a good boy. You’re the dangerous one, mate. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/69 "2012-06-09T06:44:56Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Translation: Speaking as a reactionary, right-wing gun nut, I fully support Zimmerman even though I have no idea what happened that night. I will blindly accept the self-serving account of the shooter even though it defies logic. It does not trouble me at all that the cops didn’t believe Zimmerman’s account because Martin was a hardcore thug and he deserved to be profiled, stalked, harassed and shot. He should have run home faster, like a good boy. > > You’re the dangerous one, mate. Nope, I’m not blindly accepting anything. I’m looking at the actual evidence - which at the moment points to Zimmerman acting stupidly but legally, and getting beaten up, and defending himself. If evidence comes out that disproves his statement, then I’ll accept that it’s false, but the default is to believe him until there’s reason to do otherwise. It should be obvious that if he’s lying, the witness and physical evidence will make it clear. Martin could have done many things - ignored Zimmerman, called the police, explained what he was doing, or yes, run home. Whilst the latter would frankly have been the most sensible, he’s not obliged to do it - or expected to. What he couldn’t do was launch an unprovoked attack on Zimmerman, and the evidence that’s in the public domain suggests that’s what happened. No-one was stalked or harassed, there’s no way Zimmerman could have done that, as he’d not encountered Martin before that evening. By “profiling”, you mean “observing suspicious behaviour”, and Zimmerman was correct to call the police, and within his rights to follow and question Martin. As for “gun nut”, maybe you should stop making assumptions. I’d prefer they didn’t exist, but I also think that, if you live somewhere they are prevalent, you’d be an idiot not to have one. You’re correct about right-wing, though. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/70 "2012-06-09T06:47:59Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No, but what I am is a guy who has been hassled by cops because someone decided I looked suspicious. And I know that the minor irritation I dealt with is chickenfeed compared to the daily life of a young black men. I also know its wrong. > > And even a moron doesn’t need to know more. If you’d been hassled even if you _didn’t_ look suspicious, you’d have a point. If you were questioned by the police because you had the misfortune to look or act in a way that, due to circumstances you were unaware of, caused someone to be suspicious, that’s unfortunate but necessary. Not wrong. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/71 "2012-06-09T06:49:32Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > people being allowed to call the police on people fitting the profile of suspected criminals without being criticised for it How about the side of chasing scared kids through the dark? Just what about Martin fitted the profile? Was it the iced tea, and skittles? Chatting his girl friend? The weather resisting hoodie? Was it being black in the wrong neighborhood? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/72 "2012-06-09T06:56:20Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > How about the side of chasing scared kids through the dark? If he chased, that’s a problem. If, as he claims, he followed so the police could find him, it isn’t. Do you have any reason to assume he chased? > [@](#): > > Just what about Martin fitted the profile? Was it the iced tea, and skittles? Chatting his girl friend? The weather resisting hoodie? Was it being black in the wrong neighborhood? Walking around a private, gated neighbourhood he didn’t live in, looking at the houses, whilst fitting the description of burglars who’d been active there. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/73 "2012-06-09T06:56:28Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The call about Trayvon Martin was not pure speculation, it was based on observed suspicious behaviour. Being born black and male was the “suspicious behavior” in question. I expect Zimmerman knew that for most purposes murdering black men is effectively legal and decided to go for it and indulge his Rambo fantasies; he just had the misfortune of the case getting into the media’s collective eye so the cops and courts can’t just decide to ignore it like they usually would. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/74 "2012-06-09T06:57:47Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > No, I don’t. It’s absolutely right, if there have been burglaries committed in your area by young black men, to call the police if you see a young black man acting suspiciously, such as walking slowly in the rain looking closely at houses in the area. > > The same would, of course, apply to middle-aged white women, or any other demographic you care to mention. If you think people should willingly be victims of crime due to political correctness, you are a fucking moron. Ahh I guess it’s the being black without a permit. There’s always crime. It is no excuse to trash civil rights. Martin, who was not stealing anything, wasn’t harming anyone, was stalked, to his fright, by this creep with a gun. Unless you wish to call his girlfriend a liar, we have documented testimony he found Zimmerman’s nutball stalking, stalking he was requested not to do, but chose to anyway, to be scary. Did Martin deserve that for being black? There are “reports” of a young black male stealing things, so all young black males have to be punished by being singled out for abuse? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/75 "2012-06-09T07:00:28Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Being born black and male was the “suspicious behavior” in question. I expect Zimmerman knew that for most purposes murdering black men is effectively legal and decided to go for it and indulge his Rambo fantasies; he just had the misfortune of the case getting into the media’s collective eye so the cops and courts can’t just decide to ignore it like they usually would. Your paranoid fantasies have no basis in the actual facts of the case. The most important one being that Zimmerman was an anti-racist activist. It’s possible he murdered Martin, and if so, frankly, he’s probably stupid enough that he’ll give himself away, based on his handling of the bail issue. But there’s no reason to think race is a factor. I’m not quite sure how wanting to protect your community from criminals has become a bad thing. Are people just ignoring the fact that there had been several burglaries in the area, or do you think that people should just ignore suspicious behaviour and willingly become victims of crime, just so as not to be accused of racism? ---
**Author:** ![florez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b9e5f3/32.png) [@florez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/florez)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/76 "2012-06-09T07:02:14Z")
> [@al27052](#): > > If I am one, then I am. > > But the 3 or 4 people who’ve told me how poorly blacks and hispanics get along, in general, were all black. Co-workers, acquaintances, etc.. > > Were THEY bigots too? Relating their impressions of how well two groups of people tend to get along? I can only give my impression of what I hear from Hispanic family members and friends in California, but they are overwhelmingly disgusted with the actions of Zimmerman, and relate more to the problems of being under suspicion for no good reason. Also where I am from in LA and in the San Diego area, it has been my experience that Hispanics are often in buffer zone neighborhoods between whites and blacks, and by and large we relate better with the black neighbors. Another thing I have noticed, is that white people are the ones who generally move away when either blacks or Hispanics start to move into majority white neighborhoods. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/77 "2012-06-09T07:03:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > If he chased, that’s a problem. If, as he claims, he followed so the police could find him, it isn’t. Do you have any reason to assume he chased? Are you calling Martin’s girlfriend a liar? He was not acting on behalf of the police, 911 requested he not do that. His following scared Martin bad. If I tell you not to bring me a tea, but you bring me one anyway against my wishes you were not acting on my behalf. > [@](#): > > Walking around a private, gated neighbourhood he didn’t live in, looking at the houses, whilst fitting the description of burglars who’d been active there. A young black man could never be visiting friends or family in a gated community? I look at houses when I walk too, clearly I’m a burglar.:rolleyes: Can you give me a description of those burglars beyond “young and black”? Do all young and black men look alike to you? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/78 "2012-06-09T07:06:29Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > Ahh I guess it’s the being black without a permit. No. Try actually reading my posts. > [@](#): > > There’s always crime. It is no excuse to trash civil rights. Martin, who was not stealing anything, wasn’t harming anyone, was stalked, to his fright, by this creep with a gun. He was not stalked. You should probably find out what that word means. > [@](#): > > Unless you wish to call his girlfriend a liar, we have documented testimony he found Zimmerman’s nutball stalking, stalking he was requested not to do, but chose to anyway, to be scary. Did Martin deserve that for being black? I don’t find the evidence of someone who waits several weeks after their boyfriend has been killed to call the police overly credible, and the fact that she’d been in repeated communication with Martin’s family’s lawyer before calling the police doesn’t help matters. Also, “deserve” is irrelevant. What matters is whether Zimmerman’s behaviour was legal. Following someone is. There was no possibility of stalking - again, find out what that word means. > [@](#): > > There are “reports” of a young black male stealing things, so all young black males have to be punished by being singled out for abuse? There was no punishment, and no abuse that we know of. If there _was_, then Zimmerman needs to be prosecuted for it, but that must only happen if there’s actual evidence for it, not an assumption that the action must have been racist, just because Martin was black. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/79 "2012-06-09T07:10:00Z")
> [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](#): > > A young black man could never be visiting friends or family in a gated community? Of course he could, in fact that is what he was doing. Which I’m sure could have been cleared up if he’d told the police that, instead of punching Zimmerman to the floor, then bashing his head against the ground. > [@](#): > > I look at houses when I walk too, clearly I’m a burglar.:rolleyes: I suggest you find out the difference between “acting suspiciously” and “being a criminal” > [@](#): > > Can you give me a description of those burglars beyond “young and black”? Do all young and black men look alike to you? No, and no. If Zimmerman had called the police on every black youth he saw, there would be a problem. It’s the combination of appearance and suspicious behaviour that means there isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2012, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470/80 "2012-06-09T07:14:39Z")
> [@](#): > > … looking at the houses… How do you walk around a neighborhood without looking at houses? Count cracks in the sidewalk? Stare at the clouds? Blindfolded? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/all-you-zimmerman-lovers-in-the-great-debates-thread-are/624470.md?page=5)