# "Allahu Akbar" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589 "2015-11-14T20:12:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/221 "2015-11-18T18:06:09Z")
Yes. But violence against [visiting fans](http://www.cbssports.com/general/writer/gregg-doyel/24722022/serious-fan-violence-taking-on-life-of-its-own-can-it-be-stopped) is common too. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/222 "2015-11-18T18:06:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sports-related riots are fairly common in the US, you know. But they don’t do the things andros was referring to, or anything like it. The fact that people routinely say those things and they never actually happen provides the context which shows they are not meant literally. If there were angry sports fans calling for a riot, people would be less inclined to interpret them figuratively, despite their being “White and American”. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/223 "2015-11-18T18:12:48Z")
Please show me evidence that those Turkish asshole footy supporters bombed Paris. Or were, indeed, anything but asshole footy supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/224 "2015-11-18T18:52:06Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am not following you. When the Iranians say “Death to America” or a terrorist says “Allahu akbar” before he kills someone, is it a distortion that they are wishing death to America or saying that their actions are being done in the name of Allah? > > Regards, > Shodan Strange, I am unable to detect the theological component in the phrase “death to America” and maybe because I am not an extreme right wing American, it is not hard for me to see the perfectly secular and non-Muslim reasons for any number of the Iranian factions not to be very friendly to the American government, these little matters of supporting coup d’etats and murderous torturing dictatorships with the thin veneer of the pseudo-secularity. Seeing this of course does not mean I agree with the Iranian political factions that take this line, but one must be some kind of blinded Ideological robot or grossly dishonest to pretend such a thing is (or I guess the Venuezuelans, the Argentines, the Cubans, the other Latin Americans who chant such slogans are in some strange way Muslim too). The idea that the Palestinian groups wishing to destroy or defeat the Israel is particularly Muslim and indicative of some thing specifically Muslim is also one of those strange things that Americans of a certain blinded political tendency have convinced themselves of for their own ideological reasons. The Arab Christian led Palestinian factions - indeed the ones founded by and within the community, have sought the same objectives and indeed were the first to use organized terror tactics, drawing on the fashionable extreme Left model then. Citing them is only proof of a narrow, sectarian American ‘Christianist’ view of the world - or being robotically wedded to the political faction that follows that. Of course I highlight again seeing this does not mean I agree with these views (to call for destroying Israel, maybe when I was a hot youth I could have, but like many I hope for the peaceful solution with the 1967 borders) The Agitation-Propaganda discourse adopted by the Phobic tendency is interesting for its Circus Mirror aspects, but it is false - it is reducing the not-black-and-white points made to the Cowboys (who have fallen too many times from their horses) understanding as of course what has been said is not “no religious component” or understanding or it is either or, what has been said is there are other motivations lensing through a religious discourse. And of course it has also been said that it is quite simple minded (if not even actively dishonest) to look at the constitution of the DAESH and not understand that to take their Agitation Propagandas simplistically at face value, when evidence of their own “impure” actions is then like insisting in a donkey like fashion that one has to accept the Agitation Propaganda of the Communist Party China at its face value… But the ideological robots following set and simple algorythms, perhaps they can not process. Disdain, ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/225 "2015-11-18T19:06:50Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Strange, I am unable to detect the theological component in the phrase “death to America” and maybe because I am not an extreme right wing American, it is not hard for me to see the perfectly secular and non-Muslim reasons for any number of the Iranian factions not to be very friendly to the American government, these little matters of supporting coup d’etats and murderous torturing dictatorships with the thin veneer of the pseudo-secularity. So the Iranians mean it when they chant “Death to America”, because they think they have a legitimate grievance. However, a Muslim terrorist who chants “Allahu akbar” and thinks he has a legitimate grievance doesn’t mean what he says. Is that what you are saying? > [@](#): > > The idea that the Palestinian groups wishing to destroy or defeat the Israel is particularly Muslim and indicative of some thing specifically Muslim is also one of those strange things that Americans of a certain blinded political tendency have convinced themselves of for their own ideological reasons. Maybe we get this strange idea from Hizbollah’s original charter in 1985, which read in part - > [@](#): > > We are the sons of the umma (Muslim community) … > … We are an ummah linked to the Muslims of the whole world by the solid doctrinal and religious connection of Islam, whose message God wanted to be fulfilled by the Seal of the Prophets, i.e., Prophet Muhammad. … As for our culture, it is based on the Holy Quran, the Sunna and the legal rulings of the faqih who is our source of imitation … Or the original charter of Hamas - > [@](#): > > Grace to Allah, whose help we seek, whose forgiveness we beseech, whose guidance we implore and on whom we rely. We pray and bid peace upon the Messenger of Allah, his family, his companions, his followers and those who spread his message and followed his tradition; they will last as long as there exist Heaven and Earth. But of course they didn’t mean any of it. 😃 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/226 "2015-11-18T19:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > …Grace to Allah, whose help we seek, whose forgiveness we beseech, whose guidance we implore and on whom we rely. We pray and bid peace upon the Messenger of Allah, his family, his companions, his followers and those who spread his message and followed his tradition; they will last as long as there exist Heaven and Earth… Wow! Talk about a hair-raising and hateful expression of blood lust and murder! ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/227 "2015-11-18T20:16:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > However, a Muslim terrorist who chants “Allahu akbar” and thinks he has a legitimate grievance doesn’t mean what he says. So when George W says that God told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, do you think this was the driving factor that led to the invasion of both countries? > **[George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa)** > > George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month. By Ewen MacAskill. > [@](#): > > One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: “President Bush said to all of us: ‘I am driven with a mission from God’. God would tell me, ‘George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan’. And I did. And then God would tell me ‘George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq’. And I did.” > > Mr Bush went on: “And now, again, I feel God’s words coming to me, ‘Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East’. And, by God, I’m gonna do it.” I mean, which was it? His imaginary sky friend? Or the imaginary weapons of mass destruction? Enquiring minds, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/228 "2015-11-18T20:27:11Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > If there were actually a lot of people throwing Seattle footballers on bonfires and burning them etc., then that would put a completely different spin on these chants. “Who’s that lying on the seafront… who’s that lying on the shore… It’s Norman Tebbit and his wife, and she’s paralysed for life… And they wont be going to Brighton anymore!” As sung by the “bhoys” in the Jungle at Celtic’s first home game after the Brighton Bombing. You have to give it to them, they didn’t have a lot of time to put that together. Should we interpret this as proof that all Catholics supported IRA atrocities during the troubles? Conversely, lordd knows there were plenty of Ranger songs mocking Bloody Sunday, and the famines, so should we take that as proof that all Protestants supported british atrocities in Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/229 "2015-11-18T20:29:49Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > So when George W says that God told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, do you think this was the driving factor that led to the invasion of both countries? > > [George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq' | World news | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/oct/07/iraq.usa) > > I mean, which was it? His imaginary sky friend? Or the imaginary weapons of mass destruction? Enquiring minds, etc. [Both the White House and Mahmoud Abbas say that this did not happen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabil_Shaath). But that is rather beside the point - did Bush not mean what he said when he said he was going to invade Iraq? If Iran says “Death to America”, is this not meant seriously? When a Muslim terrorist says “Allahu akbar”, does he mean it? How does the fact that Bush meant it when he said he would invade Iraq affect that? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/230 "2015-11-18T20:36:13Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > “Who’s that lying on the seafront… > who’s that lying on the shore… > It’s Norman Tebbit and his wife, and she’s paralysed for life… > And they wont be going to Brighton anymore!” > > As sung by the “bhoys” in the Jungle at Celtic’s first home game after the Brighton Bombing. You have to give it to them, they didn’t have a lot of time to put that together. Should we interpret this as proof that all Catholics supported IRA atrocities during the troubles? > > Conversely, lordd knows there were plenty of Ranger songs mocking Bloody Sunday, and the famines, so should we take that as proof that all Protestants supported british atrocities in Ireland. ISTM that you’ve lost track of the discussion here. My comments were not about whether “all” of any group supported anything. The question being discussed was whether chants of these sorts should be interpreted figuratively or literally. I’m not familiar with the incidents you refer to, but it sounds as if someone made mocking references to actual injuries, deaths etc. Consistent with what I’ve said here, I think it’s reasonable to assume that those people did support those bombings and atrocities etc. As to how _widespread_ support for these bombings was, it would depend on how widespread expressions of this sort were. I have no idea. Do tell. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/231 "2015-11-18T20:37:38Z")
> [@](#): > > …did Bush not mean what he said when he said he was going to invade Iraq? There used to be a lot of proof of his sincerity, but they’ve all been buried by now. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/232 "2015-11-18T21:22:31Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > ISTM that you’ve lost track of the discussion here. The discussion started with this: > [@Fuji](#): > > Could one of our resident Islamic scholars explain the meaning of the OP’s phrase in question within [this](http://blog.sfgate.com/soccer/2015/11/17/turkey-soccer-fans-boo-minute-of-silence-for-paris-attacks/) particular context? :dubious: > [@Ramira](#): > > Encore, drunk Turkish football hooligans being cretins at the match with their rival, what scholarship do you need? > > Or you think there is something muslim about hooligans acting like assholes? Any clearer to you know why I then provided examples of Celtic fans (catholic) and Rangers fans (protestant) acting in a similarly fuckwitted manner. They’re not doing it because they support terrorism. They do it because they like to cause massive amounts of offence to rival supporters. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/233 "2015-11-18T21:25:21Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > The discussion started with this: You’re misrepresenting the exchange. I was responding to a specific point made by andros. If you want to respond to those other people you quoted, don’t drag me into it. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/234 "2015-11-18T21:50:24Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > You’re misrepresenting the exchange. > > I was responding to a specific point made by andros. If you want to respond to those other people you quoted, don’t drag me into it. And yet, I’m not sure you _have_ responded to it. Why do we not take Portland Timbers fans seriously when they act like hideous assholes, but we must take Turkish fans seriously when _they_ do? Those Turkish fans are not terrorists any more than the Timbers Army are. Unless, of course, you have evidence to the contrary? Look, was it offensive to shout over a moment of silence? Sure. And I do not condone it. If someone next to me at a Timbers match were acting the same way, I’d at very least tell him to shut up (and depending on my BAC might take a swing at him). I don’t expect the same cultural standards around the world (even though I consider my anti-racism, anti-homophobia, pro-multiculturalism stance to be the superior one), and within the variance of societal acceptance I don’t see much difference between soccer fans being pricks here or in Turkey. Difference in degree only. Doesn’t mean they actually support death or mayhem. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/235 "2015-11-18T21:56:00Z")
> [@andros](#): > > And yet, I’m not sure you _have_ responded to it. Why do we not take Portland Timbers fans seriously when they act like hideous assholes, but we must take Turkish fans seriously when _they_ do? I addressed this in post #215 (& subsequent follow-up posts). ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/236 "2015-11-18T22:04:32Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I addressed this in post #215 (& subsequent follow-up posts). Ah yes, you said that it was _different_ because we in the Timbers Army do not \*actually \*throw people on bonfires after we shag their women and drink their beer. Please, then, show me the evidence that the Turkish fans in the above article have committed acts of violence. If it’s so different, show me those Turkish fans who bombed Paris. Show me any evidence at all that they are\* anything other than pricks\*. Seriously, help me out here. Because what I’m \*hearing \*is that they are Muslim, and therefore violent, and therefore we must consider them terrorists when they act like pricks. And I really hope that’s not what you’re saying. . ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/237 "2015-11-18T22:05:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Westerners have to be excruciatingly careful not to mention the Crusades > [@Ramira](#): > > ah poor Partisan Algorythm Response is frustrated that his political Tribe gets criticism for hypocrisy so he makes sad attempts at gotcha ya. > > Of course outside of the Algorythm response, even your very incompetent… You just had to go get her started on all that Algorythm [sic] and Tribes bullshit again, didn’t you, **Shodan**? I can almost follow what she’s saying (I assume Ramira’s a she, I’ve heard her referred to this way without rebuttal) until she starts with that nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/238 "2015-11-18T22:08:30Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Ah yes, you said that it was _different_ because we in the Timbers Army do not \*actually \*throw people on bonfires after we shag their women and drink their beer. Reread the post. That’s not what I said. I did not say because “we in the Timbers Army …”. I said because “no one …”. The rest of your post is premised on your reformulation, and thus moot. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/239 "2015-11-18T22:14:46Z")
It is a pity that someone as cogent and clear as yourself is so frequently misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 18, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/240 "2015-11-18T22:16:27Z")
I explained the general phenomenon to Kimstu, earlier in this thread. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589.md?page=13)