# "Allahu Akbar" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589 "2015-11-14T20:12:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/261 "2015-11-19T16:16:54Z")
> [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > Oh my God! > > :smack: Seems like you haven’t read the thread because that is exactly what some in this thread are claiming. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/262 "2015-11-19T16:19:13Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Of course I know well that the internjection of the phrase “legitimate grievance” is a pure invention as a way to attempt to create a StrawMan to distract from how utterly stupid and bankrupt the sad deformations are, trying to make it seem as if I have made opinions about legitimacy or not of greivances, contra highlighting the illogical and ad-hoc melange typical of the party politial Ideologues running their set Algorythms. So your reference to it 'the perfectly secular and non-Muslim reasons for any number of the Iranian factions not to be very friendly to the American government, these little matters of supporting coup d’etats and murderous torturing dictatorships with the thin veneer of the pseudo-secularity" was not an assertion that Iran had a legitimate grievance? I thought you were trying to say that Iran was not chanting “Death to America” because they were an Islamofascist terrorist state, but because they had a legitimate grievance. Now I find you don’t think they have any legitimate grievance. So it must be because they are Islamofascist after all. > [@](#): > > So there is not any logical basis to make an argument that it is particularly Muslim derived - but of course the reality that the Arab (maybe he is more comfortable with camel jockey or other cowboy phrases) Christian do not fit the American christianist narratives. You are accurately restated the issue - even when Muslim terrorists say explicitly that their actions are in the name of their brand of Islam, we can’t believe them. For which there is no real logical basis. Regards, Shodan PS - shove the “camel jockey” remark up your ass. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/263 "2015-11-19T16:21:00Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Post #215. (See also post #222.) > > [X is “_that they (in the Turkish case) should be taken as a genuine expression of support for violence, on the part of those fans_”. Y is whether this proves that all Muslims are violent or support violence. Things began going off-track in post #228; see also post #230.] Not seeing a declarative statement of position from you in those posts. Here’s the exchange, and I’ve labelled each of your posts with the respective post number. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > (Post #215) One other difference that you left out. > > No one is actually doing or has ever done any of those things to Seattle players and fans. That by itself makes the context different. > > If there were actually a lot of people throwing Seattle footballers on bonfires and burning them etc., then that would put a completely different spin on these chants. > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Sports-related riots are fairly common in the US, you know. > [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > (Post #222) But they don’t do the things andros was referring to, or anything like it. The fact that people routinely say those things and they never actually happen provides the context which shows they are not meant literally. > > If there were angry sports fans calling for a riot, people would be less inclined to interpret them figuratively, despite their being “White and American”. It sounds like you’re arguing that Turkish soccer fans chanting Allahu Akbar during a moment of silence for Paris means literally that they want more attacks just like those in Paris. _ **Is** _ that what you’re arguing? Claim your position, please. Make a simple argument without reference to conditionals or analogies or other posters’ remarks. How do you interpret the chanting of those Turkish fans during the attempted moment of silence? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/264 "2015-11-19T16:23:22Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > (maybe he is more comfortable with camel jockey Wow, how very racist of you. Go fuck a camel. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/265 "2015-11-19T16:26:15Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Not seeing a declarative statement of position from you in those posts. Here’s the exchange, and I’ve labelled each of your posts with the respective post number. > > It sounds like you’re arguing that Turkish soccer fans chanting Allahu Akbar during a moment of silence for Paris means literally that they want more attacks just like those in Paris. _ **Is** _ that what you’re arguing? Claim your position, please. Make a simple argument without reference to conditionals or analogies or other posters’ remarks. > > How do you interpret the chanting of those Turkish fans during the attempted moment of silence? It indicates that they regard those attacks positively. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/266 "2015-11-19T16:30:03Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Wow, how very racist of you. Go fuck a camel. Oh, are you already done with it? Is that why the camel seems so dissatisfied? ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/267 "2015-11-19T16:39:48Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It indicates that they regard those attacks positively. _Why_ do you think it indicates support for the attacks? I ask because the phrase they chanted has no direct relevance to terroristic acts, and the context in which the phrase was chanted only tells us about the relative sympathies felt by a crowd of Turkish sports fans about a Parisian massacre while they were waiting for the game they were attending to commence. If they’d been chanting “Death to France! Death to Parisians!” it would be pretty clear. But they were chanting a commonplace cultural expression of faith (one that’s often used casually and dispassionately, almost reflexively), in defiance of the requested silent observance of sympathy. Says nothing directly about whether and how they support the aims of DAESH or jihadist terror in general. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/268 "2015-11-19T16:49:30Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Says nothing directly about whether and how they support the aims of DAESH or jihadist terror in general. And frankly, the booing is entirely in keeping with many (prickish) Turkish fans’ opinions of UEFA and (Western) European footy. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/269 "2015-11-19T16:53:27Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Oh, are you already done with it? He’s just resting between humps. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/270 "2015-11-19T17:28:06Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > _Why_ do you think it indicates support for the attacks? > > I ask because the phrase they chanted has no direct relevance to terroristic acts, and the context in which the phrase was chanted only tells us about the relative sympathies felt by a crowd of Turkish sports fans about a Parisian massacre while they were waiting for the game they were attending to commence. > > If they’d been chanting “Death to France! Death to Parisians!” it would be pretty clear. But they were chanting a commonplace cultural expression of faith (one that’s often used casually and dispassionately, almost reflexively), in defiance of the requested silent observance of sympathy. Says nothing directly about whether and how they support the aims of DAESH or jihadist terror in general. OK, so I assume you’re now clear on what the discussion is about and have decided to address the issue itself. As to that, you’re opening a new line of thought. ISTM that it was hitherto accepted in this thread and discussion that the gesture was intended as a sign of _ostensible_ support for the attacks, and the question was whether this was meant literally or hyperbolically. andros said the latter, which is what I objected to. What you’re now saying is a new suggestion: that the gesture wasn’t really in support of the Paris attacks at all, even as a hyperbolic gesture. I looked around a bit and it seems that [it’s not so clear](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/11/18/turkish-soccer-fans-disrupt-moment-of-silence-for-paris-attack-victims/). I’m not an expert on Turkish culture, so I can’t say. Perhaps you’re right about this. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/271 "2015-11-19T17:33:19Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > Wow, how very racist of you. Go fuck a camel. What did camels ever do to you? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/272 "2015-11-19T17:41:34Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > OK, so I assume you’re now clear on what the discussion is about and have decided to address the issue itself. > > As to that, you’re opening a new line of thought. ISTM that it was hitherto accepted in this thread and discussion that the gesture was intended as a sign of _ostensible_ support for the attacks, and the question was whether this was meant literally or hyperbolically. andros said the latter, which is what I objected to. What you’re now saying is a new suggestion: that the gesture wasn’t really in support of the Paris attacks at all, even as a hyperbolic gesture. I looked around a bit and it seems that [it’s not so clear](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/early-lead/wp/2015/11/18/turkish-soccer-fans-disrupt-moment-of-silence-for-paris-attack-victims/). I’m not an expert on Turkish culture, so I can’t say. Perhaps you’re right about this. It occurs to me that I did not extend you the courtesy of stating my own position, after insisting on yours. I apologize. You are correct that I don’t entirely agree with either you or **andros** regarding specific support -ostensibly or hyperbolically- for the Paris attacks. My position is that I cannot assume, regarding the Turkish chanters, direct support of the Paris attacks, but only general dissatisfaction with the idea of showing solidarity with Western Europe -at their sports entertainment venue and most likely in the general case. I think it’s a broad overreach to assume any feelings beyond this, and I think it betrays a hint of xenophobia to assume there could even be, in such an impromptu collection of sports fans, broad consensus of goals and opinions outside of the expected support of the respective teams. (Xenophobic because it’s an assumption about ideological homogeneity that’s unlikely to be made about a typical English or American football audience.) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/273 "2015-11-19T17:45:05Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What did camels ever do to you? Cheesus, did you see how they were _dressed_? Mrowr! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/274 "2015-11-19T17:47:25Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > My position is that I cannot assume, regarding the Turkish chanters, direct support of the Paris attacks, but only general dissatisfaction with the idea of showing solidarity with Western Europe -at their sports entertainment venue and most likely in the general case. I think it’s a broad overreach to assume any feelings beyond this, and I think it betrays a hint of xenophobia to assume there could even be, in such an impromptu collection of sports fans, broad consensus of goals and opinions outside of the expected support of the respective teams. (Xenophobic because it’s an assumption about ideological homogeneity that’s unlikely to be made about a typical English or American football audience.) I agree with this. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/275 "2015-11-19T17:47:40Z")
Having now read the cite provided by **FP** , I’m doubtful I can assume the chanting was even in protest of the moment of silence. I can say such an action appears, to my Western preconceptions, to be defiance, but I think that’s my cultural perspective getting in the way, and I have to drop that assumption. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/276 "2015-11-19T17:50:26Z")
Man, they _ugly_! Seriously ugly, don’t drink much water because they have to sneak up on it! Walked past a blind man selling pencils, he gouged his ears out! _Ugly_! ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/277 "2015-11-19T18:01:34Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You are accurately restated the issue - even when Muslim terrorists say explicitly that their actions are in the name of their brand of Islam, we can’t believe them. For which there is no real logical basis. > > Regards, > Shodan > > PS - shove the “camel jockey” remark up your ass. Oh, come now! If you don’t let her use her ranty-shouty "Bigot Bigot _BIGOT!!!"_ card she’s basically playing with a busted flush. Be sporting. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/278 "2015-11-19T18:06:38Z")
Poker lesson I learned the hard way, never try to bluff somebody who is too stupid to be afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/279 "2015-11-19T18:20:31Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Oh, come now! If you don’t let her use her ranty-shouty "Bigot Bigot _BIGOT!!!"_ card she’s basically playing with a busted flush. Be sporting. “Sporting” in this case is roughly similar to a participation ribbon in the Special Olympics, but I suppose you have a point. Winning an argument with **Ramira** is like being heavyweight boxing champion of the Little Sisters of the Poor convent. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2015, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/280 "2015-11-19T18:20:42Z")
> [@xenophon41](#): > > Having now read the cite provided by **FP** , I’m doubtful I can assume the chanting was even in protest of the moment of silence. I can say such an action appears, to my Western preconceptions, to be defiance, but I think that’s my cultural perspective getting in the way, and I have to drop that assumption. There’s more along those lines in other sources. One thing I would note, though, is that the point made by several about there being similar reactions to a moment of silence for a bombing in Ankara has less to it than meets the eye. That bombing did not target random Turks but specifically targeted a rally of Kurds and other anti-ISIS people. So to the extent that there is support for ISIS in Turkey which might express itself in the form of support for bombings, it would follow that they might support that bombing too. That said, it’s hard to figure out what gestures mean in other cultures, and if people more familiar are claiming that it was not support for the bombings it’s hard to argue with them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589.md?page=15)