# "Allahu Akbar" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589 "2015-11-14T20:12:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/81 "2015-11-15T20:36:46Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Maybe you interpret the article as biased and bigoted, I never said it was bigotted, I said it makes serious mistakes and is incomplete. > [@](#): > > and finds itself in opposition to other Muslims, particularly Shiites. Is this wrong? Yes they adopt the takfiri view that anyone not believing exactly like them is wrong and kaafir, they practice excommunication to use the christian idea. Shia, Sufi. Everyone. This is an innovation, it is not in the classical theology to have this sweeping view. > [@](#): > > The reporter interviews Muslims who wanted to emigrate to IS, as they believe the caliphate is the only righteous government on earth. Is this wrong? Wrong? it is a fact there are some thousands of lost persons seeking meaning in associating with this criminal band. the idea of the caliphate that the DAESH has invented is a weird rearranging of the classical (thus the universal denunciation). This article is [more useful discussion](http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/03/mehdi-hasan-how-islamic-islamic-state), allowing for the parts of the article that are founded and giving better context in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/82 "2015-11-15T21:10:37Z")
Very few Christians truly believe in predestination, the notion that because God sees all, he knows before you are born whether you shall be saved or not. Of course, its right there in the Scripture, God knows all, all will be as He has forseen. And those who do not heed the call of the Lord are doomed. Many Christians hold that view to be heretical, others, ill-informed, but the vast majority think its silly and stupid, the triumph of theology over religion. The apocalyptic crapola that ISIS lives for is just another example of this common human hubris. The notion that you can sit down and figure out _precisely_ what God is up to, as if an ant wandering across Einsteins toe would suddenly understand calculus. Nothing “Muslim” about it, it is human, common, perhaps even universal. Just as soon as people get enough culture and ego to start in outsmarting themselves, they do it. Christian, Muslim, atheist, Jew. Human, all too human. Perhaps agnostics as well, not quite sure about that… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/83 "2015-11-15T22:53:28Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > If you asking about by the Arabic speakers, it is a more or less common interjection, although I would say La ilah ila Allah or Wallahi is more common. > > Perhaps closest is like how Americans say Jesus Christ… even when they are not strong believers or believers at all. > > I perhaps say some variation in the same fashion. Without thinking really. It is not something I notice except when in a western context then I try to pay attention as the wrong impression is taken. Even Israeli Jews use Arabic phrases like Ya Allah, Yallah, and Wallah in day-to-day speech. To us, they’re just words. ---
**Author:** ![alphareign](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee59a6/32.png) [@alphareign](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphareign)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2015, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/84 "2015-11-15T23:21:49Z")
> [@ElderSign](#): > > A Christian tries to get evolution taken out of text books. > Religious nutjob. > > A Jew thinks Israel is their people’s Holy Land. > Religious nutjob. > > A Muslim shoots civilians and blows himself up. > IT’S NOT ABOUT RELIGION, BIGOT! > > It never ceases to amaze me how the atheist rationalist humanists on this board apologize for Muslim terrorists and bury the Jews and Christians, and anyone who dares make the “connection” between The Jihad and uhm Islam. Woah, woah! I am an atheist on this board and I have nothing but contempt for all religions including Islam. Islam is just as big a scam as the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Yookeroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yookeroo/32/323_2.png) [@Yookeroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yookeroo)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/85 "2015-11-16T05:36:37Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > So clever and sophisticated! Yeah, the OP was the epitome of sophisticated cleverness. :rolleyes: [QUOTE=Starving Artist;18860670But when you start or participate in a thread where you’re making all sorts of outlandish accusations about a certain person and a poster comes along, and, bit by bit as the evidence comes out, show you to have been wrong on virtually every one of them, it’s hard to argue that poster lost the thread.[/QUOTE] Dude, you have never ever been this poster in any thread anywhere. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/86 "2015-11-16T14:09:05Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > It’s clearly a swipe at those who continue to claim that terrorist attacks and ISIS have nothing to do with Islam. They have as much to do with Islam as assassinating abortionists has to do with Christianity – no more, no less. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/87 "2015-11-16T14:20:48Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > Ramira, I’m reading the article Trino linked. I’m not a Muslim, and I am trying to get a grip on their mindset. I interpret the tone of the article as indicative of the quandaries all non-Muslims share, as in _What the Fuck Are They Thinking_? They’re young men with no prospects and poor critical thinking skills, who have been tricked into buying into a series of scapegoats for their problems. They’re really not that different from young men in the US who are schooled to believe that immigrants, gays and liberals are the source of their problems. They’re just more desperate, thus even more committed to their particular brand of nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/88 "2015-11-16T17:34:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > They have as much to do with Islam as assassinating abortionists has to do with Christianity – no more, no less. Agreed. But, assassinating abortionists seems to have quite a bit to do with Christianity, so I’m not sure what you’re saying here. Fortunately, it’s also very, very rare, and so, while not completely irrelevant, is much less of a worldwide problem than what Islam is currently going through. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/89 "2015-11-16T17:35:58Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > They’re young men with no prospects and poor critical thinking skills, who have been tricked into buying into a series of scapegoats for their problems. They’re really not that different from young men in the US who are schooled to believe that immigrants, gays and liberals are the source of their problems. > > They’re just more desperate, thus even more committed to their particular brand of nonsense. Obama’s much maligned quote on the people of Middle America seems also appropriate in describing what is going on in the middle east (minus perhaps the anti-trade) [QUOTE=Obama] it’s not surprising then they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren’t like them or anti-immigrant sentiment or anti-trade sentiment as a way to explain their frustrations. [/QUOTE] For the most part religion doesn’t motivate people into action, it just helps them justify the actions they have already decided they want to take. And since it is based on faith rather than logic and makes promises to eternal paradise or damnation, it makes arguments stemming from it immune to rational thought. So those people who feel that their traditions and culture are under attack by an oppressive “other” who is trying to wipe out everything they hold dear, may look to religion and violence as a way fight these frustrations and humiliations. It just so happens that Islam is the religion of choice in the part of the world that feels these tensions the strongest at the moment. If the situations were reversed, it is clear that many Americans would feel that it was their Christian duty to fight against the coming Islamic wave, even if that meant acting against civilians. Heck even with relatively little threat from the Middle East it is trivially easy to drum up support [in favor of Nuking Mecca](http://www.debate.org/opinions/should-america-nuke-the-middle-east). So its not as if we are fundamentally different. Fortunately there is little need for individual Christians to go anti Muslim Killing sprees since we have a military which can vent our frustrations for us. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/90 "2015-11-16T17:48:45Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > The one’s who agreed with him should. And if that percentage is high enough, then Christianity has a serious problem to deal with. Fortunately that hasn’t happened yet in Christianity. Uh, I think you mean “that isn’t happening _currently_ in Christianity”. There have been plenty of situations in the history of Christianity where a significant percentage of Christians have signed on to hateful and murderous interpretations of their doctrines. In any case, **nobody denies that Islam has a serious problem to deal with** in the significant minority of its adherents who are currently signing on to hateful and murderous interpretations of its doctrines. But the point is that “Islam has a serious problem to deal with” != “Islam itself is the problem and is inherently despicable”. Which is how a lot of people try to spin it every time some Muslims do something awful. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/91 "2015-11-16T18:04:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Uh, I think you mean “that isn’t happening _currently_ in Christianity”. There have been plenty of situations in the history of Christianity where a significant percentage of Christians have signed on to hateful and murderous interpretations of their doctrines. > > In any case, **nobody denies that Islam has a serious problem to deal with** in the significant minority of its adherents who are currently signing on to hateful and murderous interpretations of its doctrines. > > But the point is that “Islam has a serious problem to deal with” != “Islam itself is the problem and is inherently despicable”. Which is how a lot of people try to spin it every time some Muslims do something awful. No doubt that Christianity had (and has to this day, to a much, much lesser degree) a violence problem. If they revert to that next week, then that’s relevant to this discussion, and we should discuss what Christianity has to do to change it’s violence problem. But, until then, it just means that religions are a powerful motivator to make people into violent assholes. Currently, the religion with this issue is not Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/92 "2015-11-16T19:29:49Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > This article is [more useful discussion](http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/03/mehdi-hasan-how-islamic-islamic-state), allowing for the parts of the article that are founded and giving better context in my opinion. So, do I assume correctly that you disagree with the Atlantic article in that it portrays ISIS as extremely adherent to religious dogma, and that the New Statesman article is correct to point out that their motives aren’t based in religion? I can see both viewpoints as valid, because the same thing has happened in American history. Christian zealots were able to lead mobs because they capitalized on fear and insecurity. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/93 "2015-11-16T20:06:53Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In any case, **nobody denies that Islam has a serious problem to deal with** in the significant minority of its adherents who are currently signing on to hateful and murderous interpretations of its doctrines. > > But the point is that “Islam has a serious problem to deal with” != “Islam itself is the problem and is inherently despicable”. Which is how a lot of people try to spin it every time some Muslims do something awful. I disagree. The difference between the two statements is of interest to people who are themselves Muslims or theologians. Most people making claims of this sort are in neither of these groups, and are simply concerned about the significant minority of Muslims who are currently signing on etc. And to people in this category, the practical difference between these two formulations is very small if existant at all. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/94 "2015-11-16T20:10:38Z")
Bollocks. I’m not a Muslim nor a theologian and I see a huge difference between the two statements. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/95 "2015-11-16T20:12:06Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > No doubt that Christianity had (and has to this day, to a much, much lesser degree) a violence problem. I don’t think it’s particularly helpful or accurate to say that a religion, per se, has “a violence problem”. The ones with the violence problem are the extremists who claim that their religion mandates violence. What the religion, per se, has is an extremism problem. And I don’t think anybody’s denying that in this historical moment, worldwide, Islam has a much worse extremism problem than Christianity does. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/96 "2015-11-16T20:13:11Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Bollocks. I’m not a Muslim nor a theologian and I see a huge difference between the two statements. Of course there’s a difference. But the difference is not meaningful as a practical matter to people whose concern is about the practical aspects of widespread support in the Muslim world for this interpretation of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/97 "2015-11-16T20:20:14Z")
> [@Knowed\_Out](#): > > So, do I assume correctly that you disagree with the Atlantic article in that it portrays ISIS as extremely adherent to religious dogma, and that the New Statesman article is correct to point out that their motives aren’t based in religion? No, you are not assuming correctly or even summarizing correctly. Both the summary statements are some gross over simplifications of both articles, the New Statesman article of course in particular cites extensively from persons both seeing a mixed motivation and those who see it as being more cynical. My criticism of the Atlantic article is simply it is badly and narrowly informed about the foundation of the DAESH belief, as well read and founded. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/98 "2015-11-16T20:20:22Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The difference between the two statements is of interest to people who are themselves Muslims or theologians. Most people making claims of this sort are in neither of these groups, and are simply concerned about the significant minority of Muslims who are currently signing on etc. And to people in this category, the practical difference between these two formulations is very small if existant at all. Wow. Do you also see no difference between, say, the statements “Volkswagen has a serious problem to deal with in its diesel engine emissions regulation evasions” and “Volkswagen itself is the problem and is inherently despicable”? Do you think that nobody but a Volkswagen employee or a tort lawyer should be bothered to distinguish between those two statements? Do you think it doesn’t make a huge practical difference which of them happens to be true? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/99 "2015-11-16T20:21:44Z")
Wait, that picture on the front page of CNN… The guy on the right. IS THAT PRINCE??? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/100 "2015-11-16T20:28:09Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Of course there’s a difference. But the difference is not meaningful as a practical matter to people whose concern is about the practical aspects of widespread support in the Muslim world for this interpretation of Islam. Of course it’s meaningful as a practical matter. If the problem of terrorist violence actually _inhered in_ Islam per se because of its being inherently despicable, instead of being a problem that Islam has to _deal with_ because of a significant minority of extremist Muslims embracing terrorist violence, then all Muslims would be violent terrorists and you in all probability would be already dead in a terrorist nuclear strike or something of that order. Can’t get much more practical than that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589.md?page=6)