# "Allahu Akbar" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 14, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589 "2015-11-14T20:12:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/121 "2015-11-16T22:39:40Z")
What I want to know is this: When Anders Bering Brevik and Timothy McVeigh and Eric Rudolph killed all those people, where was the official outrage from the Christian movement? Where was the official condemnation of Radical Christianity? Why didn’t any churches turn themselves inside-out to root out Radical Christians in their midst? Why isn’t anyone asking the question, “Is there something inherent in Christianity that makes people like Randy Weaver happen?” How about the Lord’s Resistance Army? Do we really want them on our doorsteps? We need to look long and hard at Christians who propose to migrate, and make sure they’re not affiliated with groups like the IRA or the Hammerskins or the Ustasi. That’s just common sense. Obviously, when someone kills a whole lot of kids for absolutely no comprehensible reason, you don’t look for underlying causes. You just exercise a reasonable level of care about making sure there are none of them near you, and if there are, you maintain constant vigilance around them, like you would around a coiled rattlesnake, simply out of a healthy understanding of the dangers of the world. Immigration and weapons restrictions fall directly in line with this, as does restrictions about who can be a preacher and who can join a sect which may become violent. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/122 "2015-11-16T22:44:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I see. So according to your analogy, your role in this thread is basically that of somebody butting into a discussion about the physics of the low-pressure system causing the current rain, merely to point out _“Most people don’t need to know the cause of the rain just to decide whether or not they need an umbrella!”_ Not quite. According to my analogy, my role here is that of someone in a discussion of whether you need to carry an umbrella today, where one side is pretending for rhetorical purposes that the other side has made some sort of easily-rebuttable statement about the physics of the low pressure system causing the rain, and pointing out that no, all they’re really saying is that as a practical matter you need to bring an umbrella. > [@Kimstu](#): > > 😕 Whores being chiefly known for their rhetorical tactics, of course. I see that the line - which is about being willfully obtuse - continues to apply. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/123 "2015-11-16T22:48:58Z")
> [@Derleth](#): > > Obviously, when someone kills a whole lot of kids for absolutely no comprehensible reason, you don’t look for underlying causes. You just exercise a reasonable level of care about making sure there are none of them near you […] If you ignore “underlying causes”, then how can you even figure out whether there are any of “them” near you, much less strategies for having fewer of “them” to deal with in the future? Sure, if somebody’s walking around with a forehead tattoo that says “RADICAL TERRORIST”, or an equivalent warning evident in their criminal history or professed views, you don’t need to delve deeply into their psyche to figure out how to deal with them. But do you imagine that merely avoiding and/or containing the obvious, identified bad guys is all that terrorism-fighting is about? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/124 "2015-11-16T22:57:14Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I see that the line - which is about being willfully obtuse - continues to apply. The epigram “You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her think” is about a _whore_ being willfully obtuse. When you apply that epigram to somebody, you are calling them a whore. There’s nothing against Board rules in calling somebody a whore in a Pit thread, but you don’t get to pretend after the fact that that wasn’t what you did. ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/125 "2015-11-16T22:57:45Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Have you ever heard of concepts like “prone to”, “predisposed to”, “encourages” or the like? > > Doesn’t seem like it. So would you say that the Southern United States is inherently racist? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/126 "2015-11-16T23:00:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > The epigram “You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her think” is about a _whore_ being willfully obtuse. When you apply that epigram to somebody, you are calling them a whore. > > There’s nothing against Board rules in calling somebody a whore in a Pit thread, but you don’t get to pretend after the fact that that wasn’t what you did. Hey look, it was a famous cute line about being wilfully obtuse and you were being willfully obtuse so I used it. You can’t calibrate these things too closely. But if you feel like you were called a whore in the process I’m not going to sweat it either. Whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/127 "2015-11-16T23:01:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If you ignore “underlying causes”, then how can you even figure out whether there are any of “them” near you, much less strategies for having fewer of “them” to deal with in the future? First, I look to see who’s being really, amazingly, tremendously sarcastic. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/128 "2015-11-16T23:02:01Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > So would you say that the Southern United States is inherently racist? If there’s something about the Southern United States that makes people predisposed to being racist, then yes. If if just happens to be that way at this time, then no. (Which, as it happens, precisely parallels the Islam question.) ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/129 "2015-11-16T23:03:25Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > According to my analogy, my role here is that of someone in a discussion of whether you need to carry an umbrella today Uh, no. The discussion, before you sidetracked it, was about _why_ Muslim extremists are doing what they do, and “getting a grip on their mindset” and figuring out “What the Fuck are they Thinking?”, to quote an earlier poster. In your analogy, that would be discussing the causes of the rain. Not just the superficial question of whether or not you need to carry an umbrella today. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/130 "2015-11-16T23:10:38Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Hey look, it was a famous cute line about being wilfully obtuse and you were being willfully obtuse so I used it. You can’t calibrate these things too closely. Well, if you’re that bad at choosing epigrams that say what you mean, you should probably stick to your own words from now on. [QUOTE=Fotheringay-Phipps] But if you feel like you were called a whore in the process I’m not going to sweat it either. Whatever. [/quote] Your graceful apology and retraction are accepted. > [@Derleth](#): > > First, I look to see who’s being really, amazingly, tremendously sarcastic. Oops sorry **Derleth** , didn’t see you there. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/131 "2015-11-16T23:10:38Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Uh, no. The discussion, before you sidetracked it, was about _why_ Muslim extremists are doing what they do, and “getting a grip on their mindset” and figuring out “What the Fuck are they Thinking?”, to quote an earlier poster. > > In your analogy, that would be discussing the causes of the rain. Not just the superficial question of whether or not you need to carry an umbrella today. Not so. The discussion was about whether it’s connected to the Islamic religion, not about whether it’s inherent to the Islamic religion. The one who introduced the idea of it being inherent was you yourself, and my point was that this distinction was not important to the discussion of whether, as a practical matter, it’s connected. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/132 "2015-11-16T23:11:31Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Uh, no. The discussion, before you sidetracked it, was about _why_ Muslim extremists are doing what they do, and “getting a grip on their mindset” and figuring out “What the Fuck are they Thinking?”, to quote an earlier poster. > > In your analogy, that would be discussing the causes of the rain. Not just the superficial question of whether or not you need to carry an umbrella today. Then this should be in GQ, because these Muslim extremists have told us flat out why they do what they do, and all of them are based on their religion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/133 "2015-11-16T23:19:54Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > The discussion was about whether it’s connected to the Islamic religion, not about whether it’s inherent to the Islamic religion. Some quotes from the general gist of that discussion: > [@](#): > > Should every Christian be condemned because of this? […] > > The one’s who agreed with him should. And if that percentage is high enough, then Christianity has a serious problem to deal with. […] > > ISIS is mostly killing Muslims so wtf are they trying to achieve?? […] > > To put it another way, ISIS sees most Muslims the way Jack Chick and the Phelps family see most Christians. […] > > I’m not a Muslim, and I am trying to get a grip on their mindset. […] I gave reading the online Koran a go and read the first couple of chapters. It struck me as angry and combative in tone. […] I realize the actions of extreme terrorists do not reflect the entire Muslim culture. […] > > Yes they adopt the takfiri view that anyone not believing exactly like them is wrong and kaafir, they practice excommunication to use the christian idea. Shia, Sufi. Everyone. This is an innovation, it is not in the classical theology to have this sweeping view. […] > > The apocalyptic crapola that ISIS lives for is just another example of this common human hubris. […] Nothing “Muslim” about it, it is human, common, perhaps even universal. Just as soon as people get enough culture and ego to start in outsmarting themselves, they do it. […] > > They have as much to do with Islam as assassinating abortionists has to do with Christianity – no more, no less. […] > > They’re young men with no prospects and poor critical thinking skills, who have been tricked into buying into a series of scapegoats for their problems.[…] They’re just more desperate, thus even more committed to their particular brand of nonsense. […] > > But, assassinating abortionists seems to have quite a bit to do with Christianity […] > > For the most part religion doesn’t motivate people into action, it just helps them justify the actions they have already decided they want to take. […] > > In any case, nobody denies that Islam has a serious problem to deal with in the significant minority of its adherents who are currently signing on to hateful and murderous interpretations of its doctrines. […] > But the point is that “Islam has a serious problem to deal with” != “Islam itself is the problem and is inherently despicable”. Honestly, **Fotheringay-Phipps** , it was quite a coherent discussion until you blundered into it. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/134 "2015-11-16T23:20:47Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Failed analogy. The GOP and the NRA both have official positions that they support in the here and now, and I presume that it’s at least partly those positions you object to, and not just the presence of some awful individuals among them. Presumably what you want them to “reform” is their official support for those positions. Yes, in all cases (GOP, NRA and Islam) there are official positions that I object to that all three now hold that I want them to reform. Hence the analogy. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/135 "2015-11-16T23:26:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Some quotes from the general gist of that discussion: > > Honestly, **Fotheringay-Phipps** , it was quite a coherent discussion until you blundered into it. Or, put differently, “a lot of people shared my position until you joined, and I like having most people on my side better”. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/136 "2015-11-16T23:33:21Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > Or, put differently, “a lot of people shared my position until you joined, and I like having most people on my side better”. Haven’t seen anybody here change their mind about either of our “positions” in this thread. In fact, as I noted, your remark was basically irrelevant to the gist of the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/137 "2015-11-16T23:35:57Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Then this should be in GQ, because these Muslim extremists have told us flat out why they do what they do, and all of them are based on their religion. As I already noted in the concurrent “Worst Responses” thread: > [@Kimstu](#): > > You’re confusing a whole bunch of related but different issues here. > > **They are using their faith to articulate a justification for their crimes:** Yes, obviously. > > **They sincerely believe that their faith justifies their crimes:** Yes, probably […] > > **Their faith is the sole and independent motivation of their crimes and we don’t need anything more than their statement of their faith to fully understand their crimes:** HAHAHAHHHAAHAHA BULLLLLLLLLSHIIIIT. 😛 No, this is far from being a GQ issue. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/138 "2015-11-16T23:43:10Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Yes, in all cases (GOP, NRA and Islam) there are official positions that I object to that all three now hold that I want them to reform. Hence the analogy. In the case of the GOP and NRA, that’s pretty straightforward: the Republican Party has its official platform, and the NRA has its official lobbying issues and official president and board of directors. It’s not difficult to identify numerous “official positions” that they hold. But what are the “official positions” in the case of Islam that you want to see changed? Who determines those official positions, and whose authority would you accept as confirmation that they have changed? You’ve already stated that “I don’t care what principles they were founded on, or what their ancient texts are stating.” So I presume you’re not looking for a rewrite of original organizational charters or the text of the Qur’an, etc. You want to see certain present-day official positions officially changed. Fine, but in the case of Islam as a whole, what are those positions, what makes them official, and what would count as officially changing them? ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/139 "2015-11-16T23:45:54Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > As I already noted in the concurrent “Worst Responses” thread: > > No, this is far from being a GQ issue. First of all, citing yourself as corroboration for your opinion is embarrassing. Second of all, your response is nonsensical. They aren’t using their faith to justify crimes, their crimes come directly from their faith. Their faith that the Koran is 100% accurate (and to believe otherwise is apostasy). I left Christianity behind, and all I had was an uncomfortable conversation with my mom about why my kids aren’t baptized. If I lived in Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan or Nigeria, [greater than half](http://www.pewglobal.org/2010/12/02/muslims-around-the-world-divided-on-hamas-and-hezbollah/) of the Muslim population would think that I should be killed for leaving my religion. Even in Turkey, 13% of the population would see me dead for that. Actions aren’t justified by religion, religion is the starting point. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2015, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589/140 "2015-11-16T23:50:08Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > In the case of the GOP and NRA, that’s pretty straightforward: the Republican Party has its official platform, and the NRA has its official lobbying issues and official president and board of directors. It’s not difficult to identify numerous “official positions” that they hold. > > But what are the “official positions” in the case of Islam that you want to see changed? Who determines those official positions, and whose authority would you accept as confirmation that they have changed? The Koran. Which is 100% accurate, and to believe otherwise is [apostasy](http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/). _“Muslims can say that slavery is not legitimate now, and that crucifixion is wrong at this historical juncture. Many say precisely this. But they cannot condemn slavery or crucifixion outright without contradicting the Koran and the example of the Prophet. “The only principled ground that the Islamic State’s opponents could take is to say that certain core texts and traditional teachings of Islam are no longer valid,” Bernard Haykel says. That really would be an act of apostasy.”_ > [@Kimstu](#): > > You’ve already stated that “I don’t care what principles they were founded on, or what their ancient texts are stating.” So I presume you’re not looking for a rewrite of original organizational charters or the text of the Qur’an, etc. You want to see certain present-day official positions officially changed. > > Fine, but in the case of Islam as a whole, what are those positions, what makes them official, and what would count as officially changing them? I think the non-extremist Muslim world needs to as one declare that the Koran is not 100% accurate. Listen, I know the Bible is violent, but the priests told us growing up that some of it was wrong and that was fine. It would help if Islam had a Pope (or someone with an equally silly hat) that could wave his hands and say, hey, poof, turns out god just talked to me, and boy, we were way off! But, it doesn’t. So, there has to be some overarching reformation that happens. But, it starts with admission that the Koran is inaccurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allahu-akbar/737589.md?page=8)