# Allawi is following in Saddams footsteps. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 16, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468 "2004-07-16T19:14:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/1 "2004-07-16T19:14:07Z")
Exactly. > [@](#): > > Baghdad, Iraq, Jul. 16 (UPI) – Iraqi Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi killed six suspected insurgents just days before he was handed power, the Sydney Morning Herald reports. [http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040716-105522-1300r.htm](http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20040716-105522-1300r.htm) No trial no nothing. Trading one bad guy for another. Way to go gang. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/2 "2004-07-16T19:21:36Z")
But lets make a debate out of it. If this act is proven to be true. Should Allawi stay on as Prime Minister? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/3 "2004-07-16T19:35:50Z")
IF this is true, then whether or not he should may be superfluous. The question will be “can” he stay in power. In any case, if it is true (it sounds like one of those things that is never verified but hangs over his head), then he should step down because he is a threat to whatever stability the gov’t may have had. Acting like Saddam is a rather nice way to convince more people to join the insurgency, and raise anti-American attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![Alien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/57b2e6/32.png) [@Alien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/4 "2004-07-17T00:20:28Z")
Wow. He shot them _personally_, according to the article. And here I am, just thinking he ordered the shootings. The original story is at (registration shouldn’t be necessary): [http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/16/1089694568757.html?oneclick=true](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/16/1089694568757.html?oneclick=true) > [@](#): > > Iyad Allawi, the new Prime Minister of Iraq, pulled a pistol and executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghdad police station, just days before Washington handed control of the country to his interim government, according to two people who allege they witnessed the killings. > > They say the prisoners - handcuffed and blindfolded - were lined up against a wall in a courtyard adjacent to the maximum-security cell block in which they were held at the Al-Amariyah security centre, in the city’s south-western suburbs. > … > “The prisoners were against the wall and we were standing in the courtyard when the Interior Minister said that he would like to kill them all on the spot. Allawi said that they deserved worse than death - but then he pulled the pistol from his belt and started shooting them.” > … > The Herald has established that as many as 30 people, including the victims, may have been in the courtyard. One of the witnesses said there were five or six civilian-clad American security men in a convoy of five or six late model four-wheel-drive vehicles that was shepherding Dr Allawi’s entourage on the day. The US military and Dr Allawi’s office refused to respond to questions about the composition of his security team. It is understood that the core of his protection unit is drawn from the US Special Forces units. > … > The two witnesses were independently and separately found by the Herald. Neither approached the newspaper. They were interviewed on different days in a private home in Baghdad, without being told the other had spoken. A condition of the co-operation of each man was that no personal information would be published. > … > \*n a sharp reminder of the Iraqi hunger for security above all else, the witnesses did not perceive themselves as whistle-blowers. In interviews with the Herald they were enthusiastic about such killings, with one of them arguing: “These criminals were terrorists. They are the ones who plant the bombs.” > … > One witness justified the shootings as an unintended act of mercy: “They were happy to die because they had already been beaten by the police for two to eight hours a day to make them talk.” The paper also has a timeline on Allawi: [http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/16/1089694568976.html](http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/07/16/1089694568976.html) > [@](#): > > 1960s: Studies at medical school in Baghdad, where he first meets Saddam Hussein. Joins Baath party. > > 1963: According to the memoirs of a former Iraqi ambassador, Talib Shabib, Allawi was an assassin. > > 1975: Falls out of favour with the Baath party. > > 1978: Enters a relationship with the British security services. Word reaches Saddam’s secret police. He is attacked while in his bed in Kingston-upon-Thames. Intruder hits him over the head with an axe, a second blow nearly severs his right leg, and a third plunges into his chest. The would-be assassins flee. Allawi spends a year in hospital recovering from his injuries. > > 1992: According to former CIA officers, the INA organises terrorist attacks in Iraq between 1992 and 1995, probably including the bombing of a school bus that killed schoolchildren. > > 2002: Allawi channels the report from an Iraqi officer claiming that Iraq could deploy weapons of mass destruction within 45 minutes to British Intelligence. Well, welll, well. Seems like smoke, could be fire. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/5 "2004-07-17T00:44:10Z")
Innocent until proven guilty, gents. I’ve seen several interviews with him, and he doesn’t _seem_ monumentally stupid - however, his current position is encouraging the Iraqi people to fight the insurgents themselves, and he and the rest of the gov’t reinstated the death penalty, so… ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/6 "2004-07-17T00:49:09Z")
Ohhhh hell! I try to think the best of the Iraqi occupation I really do, why does it always seem that the bad shit seems to be right, is ANYTHING going right in that country? :mad: Sorry for the tirade but this seems that the U.S is gonna put in another de facto Shah in power of a Middle Eastern Country. We’re supposed to be spreading democracy and this happens? Damn. ---
**Author:** ![Ale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@Ale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ale)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/7 "2004-07-17T00:52:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Intruder hits him over the head with an axe, a second blow nearly severs his right leg, and a third plunges into his chest. :eek: That´s one tough MoFo!!! Regarding the OP, yes, the smell is foul; but I rather wait for independent corroboration before commenting. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/8 "2004-07-17T01:07:28Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Ohhhh hell! I try to think the best of the Iraqi occupation I really do, why does it always seem that the bad shit seems to be right, is ANYTHING going right in that country? :mad: The US companies did a relatively quick job of getting Iraq’s oil fields pumping again. Go figure that, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/9 "2004-07-17T01:11:11Z")
Yeah but, it pisses me off that when I read the paper I never hear anything good about what the occupation is bringing, all I hear is how the US is hegemonic this and destroying that, its depressing. Am not saying I don’t wanna hear the truth its just that I hope its not as bad as everyone is trying to make it out to be. I’d love Iraq to be the success story of the ME. Much like Japan and Germany after WWII. I don’t want this Allawi character screwing it up and then no one being able to anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/10 "2004-07-17T01:22:30Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > The US companies did a relatively quick job of getting Iraq’s oil fields pumping again. > > Go figure that, eh? And remember how well the defended the oil ministry. So what if they left everything else wide open. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/11 "2004-07-17T01:42:05Z")
Somebody’s going to bring this up, so it might as well be me: During the Vietnam War there was famous footage of a South Vietnamese police captain who executed a captured Viet Cong in public, in the street, in front of an American reporter’s camera. Just put his pistol against the handcuffed man’s temple, pulled the trigger. I’m sure we’ve all seen the still pic, if not the film. Together with the famous pic of a naked young girl running from a napalm attack, it was one of the most important media images that turned public opinion against the war. This situation differs in two important ways: 1. If Allawi really did this, nobody caught it on film (so far as we know). 2. The Vietnamese police captain was not the head, or about-to-be head, of the government. ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/12 "2004-07-17T01:44:28Z")
but the viet cong he shot was someone who had killed their wife and their kids. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/13 "2004-07-17T01:55:08Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > but the viet cong he shot was someone who had killed their wife and their kids. You mean, the VC killed his own wife and kids? Or the police captain’s? Or whose? ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/14 "2004-07-17T02:21:35Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > This situation differs in two important ways: > > 1. If Allawi really did this, nobody caught it on film (so far as we know). Which means that we’ll likely never know, unless he admits to it. He’ll deny it, the American witnesses would probably deny it, and even if they can produce corpses, there is no proof tying Allawi to them. HOWEVER, as I said in the beginning, this can be one of those things that hangs over his head anyway. He might not totally discourage it, either. > [@](#): > > 1. The Vietnamese police captain was not the head, or about-to-be head, of the government. Right, this charge is actually far more serious, just less substantial, because it isn’t visual media. Seeing some middle ranking officer shoot a captive enemy… OK, no way in hell that would fly today, but we expect things like this. Head of the government lining them up and personally executing them? We also expect things like this… FROM THE BAD GUYS. I’m sure this will play out as follows: Alleged witnesses: Allawi offed some thugs Allawi: No I didn’t. Bushco: We will do an indepth investigation into these charges. Hey, look over there! Media: Ooh, a butterfly! Public: Wait, what? Iraqis: سنوات من الترجمة الآلية المجانية على الإنترنت أصبح الدخول سنوات من الترجمة الآلية المجانية على الإنترنت أصبح الدخول (Wait, what? Fuck it, we’re screwed. I’m moving to Iran.) ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/15 "2004-07-17T02:25:51Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > You mean, the VC killed his own wife and kids? Or the police captain’s? Or whose? not his or the police captains now I remember, he was guilty of killing a woman and her kids, sorry for the mix up, but thats why he shot him with brute force. ---
**Author:** ![Zagadka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zagadka/32/7272_2.png) [@Zagadka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zagadka)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/16 "2004-07-17T02:28:30Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > not his or the police captains now I remember, he was guilty of killing a woman and her kids, sorry for the mix up, but thats why he shot him with brute force. Well, that’s OK. The alleged reason Allawi allegedly shot them was for killing over 50 Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/17 "2004-07-17T06:47:23Z")
> [@Ryan\_Liam](#): > > Yeah but, it pisses me off that when I read the paper I never hear anything good about what the occupation is bringing, all I hear is how the US is hegemonic this and destroying that, its depressing. Am not saying I don’t wanna hear the truth its just that I hope its not as bad as everyone is trying to make it out to be. Life is not fair; sometimes the dark cloud _doesn’t_ have a silver lining, no matter how hard you try to see one. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/18 "2004-07-17T12:22:33Z")
I don’t remember where I read this but his reputation for “toughness” and stories like this and others (“Did you hear? he _personally_ cut off the hands off insurgents during interrogations!”) are being met warmly by the Iraqi public. One wonders that if not true, that he might be planting them. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/19 "2004-07-17T12:37:45Z")
Violence against an enemy, no matter how weak, is deemed a good thing by some members of any population. So if it comes out that he has more popular support because of this, well, I won’t be surprised. I just saw it happen myself. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2004, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468/20 "2004-07-17T13:43:13Z")
> [@Zagadka](#): > > Iraqis: سنوات من الترجمة الآلية المجانية على الإنترنت أصبح الدخول سنوات من الترجمة الآلية المجانية على الإنترنت أصبح الدخول (Wait, what? Fuck it, we’re screwed. I’m moving to Iran.) Hijack : I believed that arabic characters couldn’t be used on this board. Did you copy/past them, or did you type them? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allawi-is-following-in-saddams-footsteps/255468.md?page=2)