# Allegories for racism/homophobia/etc. like X-Men or District 9 don't work **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 19, 2015, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392 "2015-03-19T16:24:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/61 "2015-03-24T12:37:05Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Wait, so are you saying that normal humans should step aside and die off because they’re being replaced by the “next step in evolution”, and if they reject or fear or fight against that, they’re being ignorant or bigoted? See, this is the problem - such a view necessarily involves seeing mutants as _not human_. Whereas if humans just saw them as their own species, they’d be gifted, and everyone would _want_ their kids to be mutants. Who _wouldn’t_ want their kid to be an Einstein or a Usain Bolt? Humans aren’t being replaced (despite Magneto’s _Homo superior_ rhetoric) - they’re being uplifted. Mutants are clearly interfertile with non-mutants, they’re no more another species from baseline humans than human “races” or ethnicities are from each other. And yes, they’d be ignorant _and_ bigoted to fight that. Way I see it, they’d be like those deaf parents who _purposefully_ have deaf kids when they don’t have to. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/62 "2015-03-24T16:06:05Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Yes, and you’re missing my point. > > Bigoted, ignorant people believe things like “gays are destroying our country”, but we, as enlightened people, know this not to be true. I think you’re kind of misunderstanding how the allegory works in this situation. I don’t think the point of the allegory is that a white person reads an X-Men comic and thinks, “Hey, racism is wrong!” The point of the allegory is that a black person reads an X-Men comic and thinks, “Man, wouldn’t it be awesome if the next time some asshole racist was hassling me, I could blast him with eye lasers?” It’s about people who are rejected for being different finding power in their differences. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/63 "2015-03-24T18:46:36Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > I’m conflicted because I’m annoyed in general by message movies that bang you over the head with their moral, like it’s an after school special. Then you can’t criticize the movie for sucking because it “means something.” If you hate the movie that’s anti-child slavery, what are ya, pro-child slavery? Or worse, so called intellectual movies that try to make some grand point about human nature, like they’re going to come up with anything new. Or how about all those movies of the 2000s trying to make political metaphors with the war on terror. There’s a difference between not being able to escape your own milieu and diving in head first. You can agree with a movie’s point, but think that the movie is stupid, or badly made, or hitting you over the head with the message. X-Men 3 had some good ideas that got lost in having too many things going on, and since it was directed by a director who is not the most nuanced. Or for a non-sci-fi movie, Crash is a good example. You can agree with it’s message that racism is bad and can have a profound effect that ripples out and harms many, but be annoyed with the clumsy writing and execution. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/64 "2015-03-24T20:06:58Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Yes, and you’re missing my point. > > Bigoted, ignorant people believe things like “gays are destroying our country”, but we, as enlightened people, know this not to be true. > > People who say “mutants are destroying our country” in X-men are painted as bigoted and ignorant in the same way, but the difference is that _mutants actually are causing harm_. Again, no more than the other many, many, super powered denizens of the Marvel Universe. You have to remember, the in Marvel comics, the Universe or Manhattan is getting threatened every week. Super powered non-mutants like Electro, Sandman, Venom, Green Goblin, and Dr. Doom don’t make the public fear Spider-man, The Fantastic Four, or Captain America. So why single out mutants? > [@](#): > > This is the whole point I’m getting at. Allegories for ignorant/bigoted fear don’t work when the fictional analog for the harmless oppressed group is \*is not actually harmless at all and is legitimately dangerous \* You’re saying mutants in general are causing harm, are dangerous, and yet you’re basing it on the actions of SOME mutants. The allegory actually works. Some gay people have committed crimes like knowingly having HIV and spreading it. Bigots cite the example of one person or a fear to argue that gays shouldn’t have equal rights, in fact should have less rights, and that the public should be wary of them. Despite the fact that anyone can catch HIV, and anyone can knowingly spread it. Blacks and Latinos are cited by white supremacists to be violent and dangerous based on the actions of SOME Blacks and Latinos, for example those that are gang members, despite the fact that all people, regardless of skin color can be violent and dangerous. They cite small examples and paint all Blacks and Latinos with the same brush, while ignoring white gang members like skinhead gangs and the Aryan Brotherhood. > [@](#): > > Wait, so are you saying that normal humans should step aside and die off because they’re being replaced by the “next step in evolution”, and if they reject or fear or fight against that, they’re being ignorant or bigoted? Is that the analogy you see in this case? if in the real world gays somehow considered themselves the “next step of evolution” and the replacement for humanity (and that sounds dangerously eugenics/genocide oriented already), I think we would be justifiably wary of such people. Do only the mutants claim that in the comics or is it scientists in the MU that say that?I don’t think i would want neanderthals preventing the rise of homo sapiens. Also, why would it be bad if the population with the x-gene becomes more prominent? “Regular humans” will lose their rights? They’ll be the ones persecuted now that the shoe is on the other foot? Same kind of thinking that racist whites used to prevent Blacks from having equal rights and representation in government. They don’t want the white gene to die off. They don’t want their “pure Aryan race” diluted. ---
**Author:** ![Gerald\_II](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Gerald\_II](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gerald_II)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/65 "2015-03-24T20:09:15Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > See, this is the problem - such a view necessarily involves seeing mutants as _not human_. Whereas if humans just saw them as their own species, they’d be gifted, and everyone would _want_ their kids to be mutants. > > Who _wouldn’t_ want their kid to be an Einstein or a Usain Bolt? Humans aren’t being replaced (despite Magneto’s _Homo superior_ rhetoric) - they’re being **uplifted**. Mutants are clearly interfertile with non-mutants, they’re no more another species from baseline humans than human “races” or ethnicities are from each other. > > And yes, they’d be ignorant _and_ bigoted to fight that. Way I see it, they’d be like those deaf parents who _purposefully_ have deaf kids when they don’t have to. _Bolding mine_ Exactly! ---
**Author:** ![MacTech](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c0e974/32.png) [@MacTech](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacTech)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/66 "2015-03-24T20:52:09Z")
> [@Lightray](#): > > This and other posts in this thread really make me want an X-Men re-imaging where they’re an allegory for gun control. Easy; You have the following firearms… Ruger Mini-14 Ranch Rifle (semiauto with wood stock) Mossberg MVP (bolt action with wood stock, takes AR magazines) Remington 700 (bolt action with wood stock) Savage Model 10 (bolt action with wood stock) H&R break barrel single shot with wood stock And an AR-15 (semiauto with polymer stock, pistol grip, collapsible stock, bayonet lug and flash hider) All use the .223 cartridge, they all use the same ammo …yet the politicians only go after the “scary” AR… ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/67 "2015-03-25T03:00:06Z")
> [@MacTech](#): > > All use the .223 cartridge, they all use the same ammo > > …yet the politicians only go after the “scary” AR… Well, you also have the types who fight to ban [.50 sniper rifles](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrett_M82), even when the vast majority of civilian owners or would-be owners would want nothing more than to use their [$9000 Barbie](https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/96/12/96/961296c4e98ca4b91df1da402988b77c.jpg) to plink targets on a range… And I guess powered non-mutants would be, like, those black powder guns you can just order straight out of Cabela’s, then? ---
**Author:** ![Grestarian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grestarian/32/3227_2.png) [@Grestarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grestarian)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/68 "2015-03-25T21:37:51Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > Professor X isn’t pushing integration and equal rights, he’s preaching cowering in cellars and hiding. It’d be as if MLK said “Don’t try to ride in the front of the busses, just hide in your basement and if you MUST go out, for God’s sake, wear white-face makeup. Hide yourselfIt’s a terrible message: Don’t demand your rights, just hide and pretend to be “normal”. Jew, black, gay, or other minority–what an awful idea for a so-called good guy to push!” My impression from the first movie onward has always been that Professor X formed his school to teach young mutants to ethical (and briliant, too, if possible) and he is also involved in politics and charities. Those efforts are aimed at helping kids who are disenfranchized for reasons beyond their control and giving them a structured environment in which they can grow and become positively-contributing members of society, with the most- (or most spectacularly-) gifted given additional attention so they can do the superhero gig when the need arises. The message seems (to me) more like, “Whenever possible, respond to evil actions with more positively-ethical actions.” and I’ve always found it ironic that, of all the mutant characters, it’s Magneto who seems to stumble on this point. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Maybe one of them has a villain that zealously wants to inflict genocide. The ones I saw only involved people wanting to be able to register/track/safely contain/be able to secure against… And the point of the allegories is that the first step toward (over)zealous infliction of genocide is the registration/tracking/containment/security efforts – which we have seen abused in Germany, California, and now in many southeastern states of the USA. > [@MrDibble](#): > > X-Men certainly spoke to me of race in early 80s South Africa. And to Asian-Americans in post-WWII America – even today. > [@Fenris](#): > > If he really wanted equal rights, he’d be suing the shit out of the government for operating Josef Mengele style concentration camps…Why isn’t he teaming up with the NRA and the ACLU to sue the government back to the stone-age? Going to the UN? etc. My impression from the movies was that he was working with a few senators and had a whole foundation working for the well-being of Mutants. That alone is a lot of work to do, even with a few key assistants (who sometimes get distracted by special X-missions). How quickly do you expect the slow wheels of politics to turn? Progress, as far as law and society are concerned is always woefully slow. Furthermore, he undoubtedly saw the wonderful results of the successful suit of that nature: The US government admitted it was wrong to imprison and enslave US citizens of Japanese ancestry and agreed to pay millions – starting with the youngest victims and disallowing transfer of settlement rights from parents to their children, thereby reducing the actual restitution payments due to the claimants’ deaths. Basically, it was “Yeah, we were wrong; watch us screw you over again…” Other lawsuits with similar foundations (Silver Cloud Mountain and various other Native American abuses; various massive medical experiments before ethical standards and committees existed) have pretty much failed. > [@Diceman](#): > > There was a thread once, asking if you would support the Mutant Registration Act, assuming that you are a normal unpowered person in the Marvel Universe. Many of us said, yep, we certainly would. In certain ways, I wish we were in such a universe. The premise makes issues of skin-color, sexual orientation, and conformity to mythologies astoundingly trivial in comparison. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > Analogies don’t have to have one-to-one correspondence to real events to work. And we’re talking about speculative fiction (i.e. SciFi/Fantasy) here. Any fiction will take only some elements from reality to emphasize, then build the rest of the universe to fit the story. Allegories are kind of a bonus for a story, but many SciFi and Fantasy tales don’t have them. And the fiction is merely a framework to explore the characters’ thoughts/emotions/ethics/behaviors/actions and thereby provide a heuristic model against which the reader compares his/her own values/intellect/et cetera. Particularly in SciFi/Fantasy, allegories aren’t supposed to match reality 100% I’m trying to escape reality for a moment by diving mind-first into this work of fiction; I don’t want it to match reality. > [@levdrakon](#): > > Did the comics or movies ever make that point, that taking reasonable precautions against dangerous people was bigotry? Most people don’t have a problem with containing the truly dangerous. The problem is when fear leads to barcoding innocent children. I haven’t seen the movies make the point that reasonable precautions are still bigotry. The movies have implied (to me) that excessive reactionary fear is undesirable. So if the girl who can change flowers’ colors just does her thing in her “magic show” at the local park, there’s no reason to give her a second thought but if she starts changing red lights to look green just to watch the cars collide then there’s reason to rein her in. But that, of course, is no different than anyone (which is the whole point). If I use my average intelligence to go about my life, nobody cares; if I use my average intelligence to poison every cat in the neighborhood, the cops will come looking for me. > [@Miller](#): > > This guy’s mutant power is that he looks like a chicken. The talons/claws are on the wrong side! He looks like a dead chicken! > [@Miller](#): > > District 9 works even better in this regard, as most of the aliens aren’t dangerous at all, just really, really foreign. FTR, they can communicate just fine with humans, although most aren’t very good at it. They look different, they have weird customs, they don’t understand our customs, and a lot of them don’t speak our language. But there’s no particular reason why they couldn’t be integrated into human society - or at the very least, no good reason why they should be forced to live in shanty towns where they’re routinely victimized by both the government and the local gangs. Which makes them a pretty good fit for a lot of immigrant groups throughout history. Not just immigrant groups, but minority groups – native Africans, Native Americans, Australian Aborigines, etc. – who didn’t have the might to resist the colonial powers and therefore got relegated to the less-desirable areas and/or shanty towns, slums, ghettos.(and all the other names of crappy housing areas). –G! “An Eye for an Eye” Makes the whole world blind! …–Mahatma Gandhi ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/69 "2015-03-26T15:15:00Z")
> [@Grestarian](#): > > My impression from the first movie onward has always been that Professor X formed his school to teach young mutants to ethical (and briliant, too, if possible)… Part of the problem with this thread is that half of us (me included) are talking about the comic books, and half the people are talking about the movies. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/70 "2015-03-26T18:48:58Z")
The point is that mutants are not all dangerous. Some are annoying, some just look weird. Being judged as a whole by the actions of some is bigoted. Why does, for example, the Beast need to be registered? He’s athletically gifted, but pose less danger than a guy with a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/71 "2015-03-26T19:02:31Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > The point is that mutants are not all dangerous. Some are annoying, some just look weird. Being judged as a whole by the actions of some is bigoted. Why does, for example, the Beast need to be registered? He’s athletically gifted, but pose less danger than a guy with a gun. Not the best example. In current comics, Beast is in large part responsible for the incipient destruction of the entire multiverse, because he keeps using his giant Mutant brain to poke around with time travel and alternate universes and other shit that threatens to destabilize the fabric of reality. Of course, Tony Stark and Reed Richards have also done shit with their fantastic intellects that imperiled one or more Earths, and neither of them are mutants. Tony isn’t even super human. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/72 "2015-03-27T00:24:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Of course, Tony Stark and Reed Richards have also done shit with their fantastic intellects that imperiled one or more Earths, and neither of them are mutants. Tony isn’t even super human. Hank Pym built Ultron, and – like Tony, but unlike Reed – I’m not sure he has any powers when he doesn’t have any of his breakthroughs on hand. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2015, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392/73 "2015-03-27T01:30:51Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Not the best example. In current comics, Beast is in large part responsible for the incipient destruction of the entire multiverse, because he keeps using his giant Mutant brain to poke around with time travel and alternate universes and other shit that threatens to destabilize the fabric of reality. > > Of course, Tony Stark and Reed Richards have also done shit with their fantastic intellects that imperiled one or more Earths, and neither of them are mutants. Tony isn’t even super human. I dunno, I think its a good example. Of course in comics you’ll have fantastically gifted people, geniuses that crack the code of creation simply because they were that smart. But like the other examples you listed, there are humans who do that. So being an average mutant doesn’t pose any extra danger than a human. They might as well tell really smart people to register because apparently in comics, one cannot be super gifted in something (intellect, athletics, juggling) without eventually cracking and becoming a villain themed with your particular gift. And correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Beast’s mutation simply that he’s gorilla-like in agility and has those foot-hands? His intellect was never referred to as a mutation, was it? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allegories-for-racism-homophobia-etc-like-x-men-or-district-9-dont-work/715392.md?page=3)