# Alligator drags away 2-year-old boy in Florida **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [June 15, 2016, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403 "2016-06-15T06:15:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/161 "2016-06-16T21:10:12Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I know nothing about Florida laws, but I suspect that the potential for a trial creating continual bad publicity may be a sufficient threat to induce Disney into a quick (and thus relatively generous) settlement. Also, if the case goes to a jury trial, there is the risk of jury sentiment going against the big corporation. There is a link above that talks a little about Florida’s liability laws in cases like this. Basically, they have to know its dangerous. 35 years and no alligator attacks in lakes that were swum in for the first 20 (and had a damn waterpark on them for a good 15) - I think that Disney will be able to argue persuasively that under Florida law, they don’t have liability. But I still think they’ll settle. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/162 "2016-06-16T21:24:14Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > There is a link above that talks a little about Florida’s liability laws in cases like this. Basically, they have to know its dangerous. 35 years and no alligator attacks in lakes that were swum in for the first 20 (and had a damn waterpark on them for a good 15) - I think that Disney will be able to argue persuasively that under Florida law, they don’t have liability. > > But I still think they’ll settle. I looked at the link; it wasn’t very conclusive. The writer basically ends it by saying “it depends”. > [@](#): > > Resort liability in Florida for an alligator attack will depend on the specific facts – not only the facts of the tragedy itself, but what the resort did and knew in advance about the alligators, and the likelihood of the harm. As I see in this thread, opinions vary widely on that exact fact: we have people here saying everything from ‘the hazard is obvious’ through ‘the hazard is foreseeable’ to ‘the hazard is remote’. I myself have no idea about the prevalence of attacks in Florida, but the variety of views makes me less confident that Disney can prove on a balance or probabilities that they could not have known it was dangerous. That uncertainty makes it the more likely that they will settle; but even if the case was a slam-dunk for them, I think they would settle anyway - purely for publicity and customer relations purposes. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/163 "2016-06-16T21:26:16Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > (2) This is Florida. Everyone knows water is likely to have alligators in it. Therefore, the guests ought reasonably to have known such an attack was possible, and taken steps to avoid it. The hotel can’t be faulted for not warning them of the obvious. I know that there are alligators in the Everglades. I have read enough to know that the critters also roam on golf courses. I would have never guessed in a million years that there were going to be alligators on a Disney resort that were not fully enclosed and/or part of a show. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/164 "2016-06-16T21:30:14Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I think my comments have rejected both viewpoints and my belief is that it is in the middle. Yes, alligator attacks are a rather unlikely event. The hotel should not be required to put razor wire around the lake, nor is there a need to not have the beach area that it constructed. It does not need to scare the guests into not staying at the resort, or to make it seem like the whole place is infested with man eating alligators like a thing out of a horror movie. > > However, it owes a guest who is paying $400/night the assurance that it is does what is reasonably necessary to remove alligators from the resort area. It owes the guests a stern warning that the lake area is a potentially dangerous place for pets or very young children who get close to the water’s edge. Especially when it takes steps to make it not look like a Florida lake/swamp but an ocean beach. > > Simply saying “No Swimming” does not alert a reasonable person that by swimming he may be eaten by an alligator. The lake closest to me has a myriad of “No Swimming” areas even though swimming is perfectly safe. It has to do with boat launching, private property rights, and a financial desire to make the patrons pay money to swim in the designated area. > > I think Disney is liable here for failing to warn the guests against a known danger concealed on its property. I’m inclined to agree. Though for a variety of reasons, I doubt it will be tested in court. My guess is it will settle, quickly. The last thing a resort owner wants is a long drawn out court case about toddler-eating alligators. They want this story to go away, quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/165 "2016-06-16T21:33:45Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > As I see in this thread, opinions vary widely on that exact fact: we have people here saying everything from ‘the hazard is obvious’ through ‘the hazard is foreseeable’ to ‘the hazard is remote’. I concur that they’ll offer some form of sympathy check without admitting any liability. However, the tricky part isn’t the range above. It’s that both of these statements: “The hazard is obvious” and “The Hazard is remote” are both true at the same time. Again, not a quarter mile from my home there is a reported dozens of alligators inhabiting a manmade lake. Behind my ex-wife’s house she has a small drainage pond - maybe 15 feet by 80 and 10 feet deep and it has a smallish (3-4 feet) alligator in it. Nonetheless, even with the proximity and the lake activities - boating, fishing and such…I’ve been on my kayak on the lake - there’s never been an attack. The worst I’ve seen happening is someone running one over like a speedbump. I still wouldn’t allow a small animal or child near the edge, though. It’s never happened but it could. Alligators are wild and unpredictable. Ergo, the hazard is both obvious and remote. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/166 "2016-06-16T21:40:04Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I concur that they’ll offer some form of sympathy check without admitting any liability. > > However, the tricky part isn’t the range above. It’s that both of these statements: > > “The hazard is obvious” > > and > > “The Hazard is remote” > > are both true at the same time. > > Again, not a quarter mile from my home there is a reported dozens of alligators inhabiting a manmade lake. Behind my ex-wife’s house she has a small drainage pond - maybe 15 feet by 80 and 10 feet deep and it has a smallish (3-4 feet) alligator in it. > > Nonetheless, even with the proximity and the lake activities - boating, fishing and such…I’ve been on my kayak on the lake - there’s never been an attack. The worst I’ve seen happening is someone running one over like a speedbump. > > I still wouldn’t allow a small animal or child near the edge, though. It’s never happened but it could. Alligators are wild and unpredictable. > > Ergo, the hazard is both obvious and remote. If this is true and provable, it argues for Disney being liable. The hazard may be “obvious” to residents, and therefore to the operators of the resort - but there is no way that it is “obvious” to guests, who the operators know come from all over the country and beyond to this attraction. Therefore, it seems to me at least that the operators of the resort owe their guests a duty of care, to correct that imbalance in local versus non-local knowledge, and to warn guests of the hazard that ought to be “obvious” to the operator. I cannot agree with the arguments, raised upthread, that the hazard is “obvious” to non-local guests, such that they had a duty to know about it. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/167 "2016-06-16T21:47:02Z")
I’m not really disputing it. But there’s a great deal we don’t know. I wouldn’t be surprised if somewhere in the hotel rental agreement there’s mention of such hazards in a way that provides some form of legal cover for Disney. Grandpa Walt didn’t raise no fools, after all. I’ll be down at Disney - though not at the Floridian - in less than two weeks. I can keep an eye out for such. Though it’ll be of questionable use as if they didn’t have that, they’ll have it soon. As for those suggesting Disney keep the place clear of alligators I would argue that the law can’t compel an impossibility. Short of sealing the entire Walt Disney World resort off from the world with a dome and installing airlocks I don’t believe that to be an acheiveable goal. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/168 "2016-06-16T21:48:11Z")
> [@SmellMyWort](#): > > Maybe pipe in some tick-tock sound effects. _When You Wish Upon Pond-Scum, Wild-life knows “You Sure Are Dumb”! Anything may crawl through briars And Come… For… You…_ ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/169 "2016-06-16T21:50:57Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > Short of sealing the entire Walt Disney World resort off from the world with a dome and installing airlocks I don’t believe that to be an acheiveable goal. Wasn’t that the original plan that Walt had to keep out Jews? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/170 "2016-06-16T22:29:02Z")
> [@Jonathan\_Chance](#): > > I’m not really disputing it. But there’s a great deal we don’t know. I wouldn’t be surprised if somewhere in the hotel rental agreement there’s mention of such hazards in a way that provides some form of legal cover for Disney. Grandpa Walt didn’t raise no fools, after all. I know there is a lengthy one at Animal Kingdom Lodge that includes such gems as “don’t leave children unsupervised on balconies” and “don’t climb fences that separate you from the animals.” I also know that even with lifeguards the pool signs all say you are swimming at your own risk. And you are right that Grandpa Walt didn’t raise fools. It would shock me if there wasn’t CYA language in your travel agreements. They sell you a cruise where they don’t even need to have the ship leave the dock to get paid according to your legal documents. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/171 "2016-06-16T22:40:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It is interesting to see two diametrically opposed viewpoints emerge: > > (1) There hasn’t ever been any other alligator attacks in that location for years and years. Therefore, the hotel ought not to be taken to task for attempting to prevent this one; it should have no obligation to warn against a possibility that remote. > > Versus: > > (2) This is Florida. Everyone knows water is likely to have alligators in it. Therefore, the guests ought reasonably to have known such an attack was possible, and taken steps to avoid it. The hotel can’t be faulted for not warning them of the obvious. > > Which is it - a vanishingly remote possibility, or an obvious peril? For a child at dusk or at night near murky water? A remote but obviously real risk. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/172 "2016-06-16T22:47:44Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > I know that there are alligators in the Everglades. I have read enough to know that the critters also roam on golf courses. I would have never guessed in a million years that there were going to be alligators on a Disney resort that were not fully enclosed and/or part of a show. A large part of the southeast has gators. Snapping turtles, fire ants, poisonous snakes, brain eating amoebas, brown recluses, yellow jacket colonies, crocodiles, sharks, and unhinged residents are also hazards. That said, there is something about being at a theme park resort where the danger of alligators is not on the forefront of one’s mind. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/173 "2016-06-16T23:09:22Z")
As sad as this case is, there is no need to overreact to it. Fatal alligator attacks are still quite rare anywhere in their natural range. However, there is something funny going on in Florida as usual. There have been 17 fatal attacks in Florida since 1948 (alligators eating people already dead doesn’t count). However, Florida’s total number of alligator attacks (non-fatal and fatal) is off the charts compared to the other states in alligator territory. There have been 337 since 1948 while only 15 for #2, Texas, during the same period and most other states report attacks in the single digit range with no fatalities. Louisiana has more alligators than any other state including Florida yet attacks of any type are almost unheard of and fatal attacks are virtually non-existent there. I haven’t heard a good explanation for it. The New Orleans area has a huge number of both drunk tourists and alligators too yet they don’t attack people. That doesn’t mean that you should let your two year old play near the water but countless people have done just that repeatedly with no alligator attacks. You have to watch out for Water Moccasins (the only aggressive venomous snake in the U.S.) and huge snapping turtles much more. I don’t know what happened to the Florida alligator population but some of them are really pissed off at something or unusually bold. Alligators in other states don’t show the same aggression or maybe people just have more sense when dealing with them. [http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea\_all\_att-health-alligator-attacks](http://www.statemaster.com/graph/hea_all_att-health-alligator-attacks) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2016, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/174 "2016-06-16T23:21:34Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Louisiana has more alligators than any other state including Florida yet attacks of any type are almost unheard of and fatal attacks are virtually non-existent there. I haven’t heard a good explanation for it. Florida population density = 378/sq. mile. Louisiana population density = 108.1/sq. mile I wouldn’t say that explains everything ( settlement patterns probably also play a part ), but I suspect it is a real factor. I assume Floridians impinge on and adjoin alligator territory more regularly than in other states. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/175 "2016-06-17T00:18:26Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > It’s a lake that guests at their resort have full access to. I think removing all the gators in it is a wise move. They may not STAY removed, but I would agree - if it’s a body of water that people have easy access to, it would be wise to do their best to eliminate or dramatically reduce the numbers. I wonder if gators are like bears, where they learn that humans = easy food (in the case of bears, it’s either deliberate feeding or they raid the trash). The thought of a gator learning that these little things are easy snacks, and deliberately going after them, is a bit frightening. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/176 "2016-06-17T00:55:32Z")
According to this [CNN report](http://www.cnn.com/2016/06/16/us/alligator-attacks-child-disney-florida/), Disney does employ full time staff to patrol and kill any alligators that “pose a threat.” I’m not sure what that means but it sounds like they don’t automatically kill them on sight. It’s perfectly normal for there to be alligators in that lake. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/177 "2016-06-17T01:03:15Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > I wonder if gators are like bears, where they learn that humans = easy food (in the case of bears, it’s either deliberate feeding or they raid the trash). The thought of a gator learning that these little things are easy snacks, and deliberately going after them, is a bit frightening. Yes, the greatest danger factor isn’t the gators themselves, but the people who feed them. And according to CNN, Disney has now agreed to post “Beware of alligators” signs in its resorts. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/178 "2016-06-17T01:16:10Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Florida population density = 378/sq. mile. > > Louisiana population density = 108.1/sq. mile > > I wouldn’t say that explains everything ( settlement patterns probably also play a part ), but I suspect it is a real factor. I assume Floridians impinge on and adjoin alligator territory more regularly than in other states. That is almost certainly part of it but it is still an odd discrepancy. Alligators aren’t generally aggressive at all except in Florida and it is only barely so even there. They are the stoners of the crocodilian world. I wouldn’t swim in an area with crocodiles but I wouldn’t hesitate to in alligator infested waters. We had to growing up in Louisiana or you wouldn’t be able to swim, ski or boat anywhere because there are well over a million of them spread over the whole state. They are everywhere but they never threatened anyone in my experience. I even knew people that had them as pets and they can learn simple commands like coming when called and healing. They aren’t something I would encourage people to treat casually but they don’t go out of their way to attack people either. Here is the level of stupidity that it generally takes to incite an alligator attack outside of Florida. An East Texas man was killed in 2015 by basically jumping on top of one despite repeated warnings: [“Fuck That Alligator”: Man Killed Seconds After Mocking Gator Warning](http://gawker.com/fuck-that-alligator-man-killed-seconds-after-mocking-1715887134) [For some levity, here is a true Louisiana cat that keeps the alligators in their place.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiyWXQyAJ44) That type of alligator behavior is more typical for alligator interactions. They usually just want to hang out and not cause much trouble. They are cold-blooded so they don’t need to eat very often. Supposedly non-aggressive dog breeds attack and/or kill people much more often than alligators. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/179 "2016-06-17T01:21:58Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#): > > Is nobody else hearing the voice of Ian Malcolm? Oh, yes. And John Hammond: > [@](#): > > _John Hammond:_ All major theme parks have delays. When they opened Disneyland in 1956, nothing worked! > _Dr. Ian Malcolm:_ Yeah, but, John, if The Pirates of the Caribbean breaks down, the pirates don’t eat the tourists. Well, OK, the _pirates_ don’t eat the tourists… ---
**Author:** ![purplehearingaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7bcc69/32.png) [@purplehearingaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehearingaid)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2016, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403/180 "2016-06-17T01:39:23Z")
I heard that one of the staffer warned Disney that alligators were getting too close and a fence should be put up . This this is true that doesn’t look for Disney. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligator-drags-away-2-year-old-boy-in-florida/757403.md?page=10)