# Alligators in the sewer **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 11, 2008, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604 "2008-08-11T14:12:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tastes_of_chocolate/32/3232_2.png) [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tastes_of_Chocolate)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/21 "2008-08-12T14:24:18Z")
Aren’t northern sewer systems below the frost line, and therefore don’t drop below freezing in the winter? It seems that a frozen sewer system doesn’t isn’t going to be a viable option for a city. You can’t exactly just let everything sit in the pipes until spring. I’ve read that in Minneapolis the frost line is in the 48" range. Surely the sewer pipes are lower then that. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/22 "2008-08-12T16:00:47Z")
[QUOTE=goodie] \ Just because a snake/crocodile/shark/unusually large lamphrey couldn’t survive a winter out here doesn’t mean that they are not in the water RIGHT NOW! [/QUOTE] Those things you suggest belong in the “vanishingly infinitesimal” subset of all things possible. The subset becomes even smaller if we restrict it to “of the above, those individuals that would have anything to do with you or your children” and smaller yet if we further restrict it to “while you guys are actually in the water”. Better to worry about being hit squarely on the head by a meteor exactly 7.2417 cm in diameter on an odd numbered day in the third week of June. [QUOTE=goodie] Besides, isn’t it possible that someone might keep a pet croc in a public watering hole over the summer and then in a private heated area for the cold months? [/QUOTE] Neither my alligators nor my crocodiles come when called. If I let them out into a public watering hole, they would swim away. Unless by “public watering hole” you actually meant the bar I frequent, in which case, not so much. [QUOTE=Tastes of Chocolate] Aren’t northern sewer systems below the frost line, and therefore don’t drop below freezing in the winter? It seems that a frozen sewer system doesn’t isn’t going to be a viable option for a city. You can’t exactly just let everything sit in the pipes until spring. I’ve read that in Minneapolis the frost line is in the 48" range. Surely the sewer pipes are lower then that. [/QUOTE] To quote my own post above “Alligators are simply not adapted to survive in a temperature regime that cycles well below optimum, and frequently dips to or below the “critical thermal minimum” for months at a time.” We can expand alligators to include all crocodilians. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/23 "2008-08-12T16:34:52Z")
[QUOTE=CannyDan] Neither my alligators nor my crocodiles come when called. If I let them out into a public watering hole, they would swim away. Unless by “public watering hole” you actually meant the bar I frequent, in which case, not so much. [/QUOTE] You keep alligators and crocodiles? Is that legal? Or are you a zookeeper? ---
**Author:** ![slaphead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@slaphead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slaphead)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/24 "2008-08-12T16:49:14Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] You keep alligators and crocodiles? Is that legal? [/SIZE] [/QUOTE] Why wouldn’t it be? People keep centipedes, snakes, tigers and other things. In some jurisdictions there are permits to fill, but other than that there are no issues other than those normally associated with non-endangered large, scary, potentially smelly, hideous monsters. 😃 > **[BBC NEWS | UK | England | Crocodiles found in bedroom](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/2234370.stm)** > > Council and police officers seize two crocodiles from a house in Oldham, Greater Manchester. ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/25 "2008-08-12T16:59:35Z")
[QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] You keep alligators and crocodiles? Is that legal? [/QUOTE] Yes we do. Yes it is. I guess this requires the statement “Don’t try this at home boys and girls!”. We have various permits and authorizations from a number of regulatory agencies; the pile is about 6 inches high. [QUOTE=Really Not All That Bright] Or are you a zookeeper? [/QUOTE] Sort of… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/26 "2008-08-12T17:00:07Z")
So how long could a Brooklyn rat survive in Florida? (_Midnight Cowboy_ suggests not long at all) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/27 "2008-08-12T18:21:56Z")
I don’t know about sewers, but lately in Atlanta, they are turning up in recreational areas. First [in the Chattahoochee River](http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13487147/detail.html) and now [in Lake Lanier](http://www.wsbtv.com/news/17154906/detail.html?rss=atl&psp=news). In the past, Atlanta winters have been too cold for gators to survive, but what with global warming and all, maybe not any more. Our winters _have_ been awfully mild lately. The two gators spotted here were probably released by humans, but I do wonder if they mightn’t able to survive here. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/28 "2008-08-12T18:50:01Z")
[QUOTE=spoke-] I don’t know about sewers, but lately in Atlanta, they are turning up in recreational areas. First [in the Chattahoochee River](http://www.wsbtv.com/news/13487147/detail.html) and now [in Lake Lanier](http://www.wsbtv.com/news/17154906/detail.html?rss=atl&psp=news). In the past, Atlanta winters have been too cold for gators to survive, but what with global warming and all, maybe not any more. Our winters _have_ been awfully mild lately. The two gators spotted here were probably released by humans, but I do wonder if they mightn’t able to survive here. [/QUOTE] ahh, by the time it gets that warm, there won’t be any water here left for him to swim in (at least I hope so – when I left Florida, aside from acquiring a semblence of a third season, I thought I rid myself the king of the golf course). ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/29 "2008-08-12T19:00:09Z")
Spoke- Species range maps are always problematic, since by freezing a moment in time, out of the species’ entire temporal history, they attempt to define the undefinable. That said, this one in Wiki is no better and no worse than others. [map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rangemapx.gif) If I squint, I can imagine Atlanta just outside of the expected range. But if I squint again, maybe Atlanta is inside it. ---
**Author:** ![whole\_bean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/96bed5/32.png) [@whole\_bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whole_bean)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/30 "2008-08-12T19:34:58Z")
[QUOTE=CannyDan] Spoke- Species range maps are always problematic, since by freezing a moment in time, out of the species’ entire temporal history, they attempt to define the undefinable. That said, this one in Wiki is no better and no worse than others. [map](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Rangemapx.gif) If I squint, I can imagine Atlanta just outside of the expected range. But if I squint again, maybe Atlanta is inside it. [/QUOTE] you’re squinting real hard.[location of Atlanta and Lake Lanier](http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/georgia/) ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/31 "2008-08-12T20:15:00Z")
[QUOTE=whole bean] ahh, by the time it gets that warm, there won’t be any water here left for him to swim in (at least I hope so – when I left Florida, aside from acquiring a semblence of a third season, I thought I rid myself the king of the golf course). [/QUOTE] I dunno. There are plenty of gators in south Georgia and north Florida, where it can get pretty cold come winter. Wouldn’t take much to nudge the “gator line” northward, I suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/32 "2008-08-12T20:17:37Z")
[QUOTE=CannyDan] If I squint, I can imagine Atlanta just outside of the expected range. But if I squint again, maybe Atlanta is inside it. [/QUOTE] Atlanta is up in north Georgia, well north of the line. But as I said, I suspect that line may be moving. There have been quite a few gator sightings in the Atlanta area in recent years. They may all be releases by humans. Or maybe our recent milder winters are allowing gators to expand their range. Who knows? Looks like the “gator line” in Mississippi runs well north of Atlanta, so it seems likely to me that they _could_ survive here. ---
**Author:** ![goodie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/839c29/32.png) [@goodie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/goodie)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2008, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/33 "2008-08-12T23:04:03Z")
Gator recipes? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Seventh\_Deadly\_Finn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6bbea6/32.png) [@The\_Seventh\_Deadly\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Seventh_Deadly_Finn)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/34 "2008-08-13T10:07:58Z")
[QUOTE=CannyDan] Better to worry about being hit squarely on the head by a meteor exactly 7.2417 cm in diameter on an odd numbered day in the third week of June. [/QUOTE] Oh, great. You had to remind me. Now I won’t be able to relax for the next 10 months. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![schnuckiputzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@schnuckiputzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/schnuckiputzi)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/35 "2008-08-13T12:58:50Z")
IIRC, we had crocs/alligators pulled out of Clinton Lake, which has a hot water outlet from the nuclear power plant…which is really scary…(nyuclear mutations make for giant monsters). 😉 ---
**Author:** ![CannyDan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cannydan/32/548_2.png) [@CannyDan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CannyDan)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/36 "2008-08-13T13:10:49Z")
[QUOTE=whole bean] you’re squinting real hard.[location of Atlanta and Lake Lanier](http://www.enchantedlearning.com/usa/states/georgia/) [/QUOTE] See, that’s what I meant about isolating a moment in time. The distance isn’t too far for even a single alligator to travel him/her-self. Or for several alligators to travel (coincidentally, not as a social group). Population pressure, local food and/or habitat availability, or other circumstances may compel individuals to wander, perhaps outside of their “normal” home range. And certainly it isn’t too far for several individuals spaced over several generations to travel, cumulatively, in smaller increments. This means that a range map can only be an approximation, and that at any given time a greater or lesser number of individuals \*would be expected to be found \* outside, even well outside, of the ‘normal’ range. As an aside, scrolling down that page I note that Georgia has a “State Possum” which is (wait for it now…) _the possum!!!_ Phwew! Sure had me worried. And while we’re on the subject… thetruewheel, you mean you aren’t already worried about being run over by a light blue Ford mini pickup truck driven by a red kangaroo on her way to Pilates? _In mid-August!??!??!_ ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2008, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/37 "2008-08-13T19:01:25Z")
Municipal utility engineer here… There’s some confusion here in this thread that I can shed some light on. The term “sewers” is a catch-all term that includes “sanitary sewers,” “stormwater sewers” (also known as “drainage sewers” and “drains”), and “combined sewers” (a mixture of sanitary sewers and stormwater sewers). Sanitary sewers carry human waste and all other wastewater flow that goes down various building drains. Stormwater sewers pick up rainwater from catch basins in the streets and roof drains. Combined sewers carry both. Stormwater sewers generally contain pretty clean water that is discharged into water bodies without treatment. Many large stormwater (and combined) sewers look like underground rivers. It’s not beyond the bounds of reason that animals could survive in these types of sewers. It’s unlikely that any animal larger than a bacterium could survive long in a pure sanitary sewer. The atmospheres are not conducive for life, and flows inevitably lead to a pump station or a treatment plant. No sewers freeze, even here in the north. [QUOTE=Tastes of Chocolate] Aren’t northern sewer systems below the frost line, and therefore don’t drop below freezing in the winter? It seems that a frozen sewer system doesn’t isn’t going to be a viable option for a city. You can’t exactly just let everything sit in the pipes until spring. I’ve read that in Minneapolis the frost line is in the 48" range. Surely the sewer pipes are lower then that. [/QUOTE] Exactly. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2023, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604/38 "2023-10-17T21:02:13Z")
Bumped. Glad to see New York officials have a sense of humor: > **[Sculpture of alligator in NYC sewers installed in Union Square](https://www.aol.com/m/a2baece0-5d02-3569-a3c6-4cc61b342295/sculpture-of-alligator-in-nyc.html)** > > UNION SQUARE, Manhattan (WABC) -- There's a famous rumor about alligators living in New York City sewers. Starting today, we will get proof of an alligator in the sewer...kind of. Swedish artist Alexander Klingspor is the creator of a new statue... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alligators-in-the-sewer/459604.md?page=1)