# Allright, I'll do it. Liberal... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 5, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529 "2005-02-05T16:01:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![kung\_fu\_lola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f4b2a3/32.png) [@kung\_fu\_lola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kung_fu_lola)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/61 "2005-02-06T03:11:39Z")
Oh, come on. You’re playing _the race card_? Puh-leaze. Lib has the luxury of a computer, a net connection, and enough personal wealth to justify espousing Libertarianism. Cry me an effing river. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/62 "2005-02-06T03:19:24Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > So I understand when Liberal doesn’t really want to talk about what is on his mind, except in the most oblique terms. As per polycarp, truth and pain are not far removed. Are you suggesting **Lib** is a First Nations or AIM activist? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/63 "2005-02-06T03:32:06Z")
> [@Homebrew](#): > > Are you suggesting **Lib** is a First Nations or AIM activist? At first read, I thought it meant Lib just got pushed around a lot in high school by the popular kids. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/64 "2005-02-06T03:39:53Z")
Erudite? Formal training in logic? Don’t make me laugh. When it comes to considering his audience, he should consider those who are erudite, who have degrees up the wazoo which include formal training in logic, who in fact earn their living arguing, and who find that he is no more than an ill informed and ill mannered obtuse twit. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/65 "2005-02-06T03:57:28Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > It’s easy to let an unintended tone of impatience or condescention creep into your posts when you feel like what you’re reading is so predictably biased on a board that is supposed to be enlightened and fighting ignorance. And if you let that tone calcify, you turn into **Shodan** ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/66 "2005-02-06T04:02:57Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Erudite? Formal training in logic? Don’t make me laugh. > > When it comes to considering his audience, he should consider those who are erudite, who have degrees up the wazoo which include formal training in logic, who in fact earn their living arguing, and who find that he is no more than an ill informed and ill mannered obtuse twit. Absolutely. In the _The Polar Express_ thread, when he cited some graduate student’s on-line paper as evidence to support his marked misunderstanding of the development of the brain and of cognition, it was fairly clear how erudite he really is. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/67 "2005-02-06T04:36:02Z")
I told myself at the beginning that I wouldn’t comment on this. But of course I will. Lib and I have very differing approaches to libertarianism. And it bugs me. He is, without a doubt, one of the worst advocates of the political philosophy I try to advocate that I have ever seen. I’ve labelled myself a practical libertarian. That is to say that libertarianism will not magically become the law of the land. And that society as a whole clearly does NOT want ultimate libertarianism. Society WANTS a safety net and government regulation of industry and commerce. Beyond society it’s fairly clear that **humanity** as a whole wants those things in place. And with that I still advocate that more liberty is better than less. So find the soft spots and push for less restriction on action commensurate with the ongoing desires of overarching human behavior and attitudes. And at least two people in this thread have said that Lib turned them off libertarianism. That is, the foremost advocate of libertarianism on the SDMB, a man who for years had the HANDLE ‘Libertarian’ _is turning people away from the political philosophy he and I believe._ Argh. I have to trust to Poly and Tris that he’s a good and solid man in real life. I’ve never met him but I do trust those two. So, for whatever my advice is worth, Lib. Learn that men will not believe simply because you believe yourself to be right. Men must be convinced and it must be done in a practical context in the existing political climate. Were this the 1780s you might make your argument stick. But it’s not. It’s 2005 and the political system of the United States is as rock solid as anything has ever been. Libertarianism will **not** be replacing what currently exists within the next 100 years (and possibly much MUCH longer). Remember, politics is the art of compromise and a politician who brings home half a loaf should be more than happy to have acheived a victory. ---
**Author:** ![Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/soul_brother_number_two/32/3515_2.png) [@Soul\_Brother\_Number\_Two](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Soul_Brother_Number_Two)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/68 "2005-02-06T05:00:48Z")
As nice as Tris, Polycarp, Veb, et al are being to Lib, they are talking about his beliefs, personal philosophy, etc. What most of the posters here are referring to has little to do with these things. It’s his drive-by contumaciousness, his need to advocate the opposite side of any issue at all, whether it makes any damn sense or not. And the tone he takes while doing it. It’s as if he is deliberately seeking to take offense. A recent post mentions that roughly what? three quarters? of his posts in the last thirty days have been here in the Pit. That says it all, to me. For such a purported intelligent, passionate individual, he is spending way less time in GD, where his ideas and passion could fuel interesting threads. He chooses instead to roll in the mud of the Pit, where he causes a whole lot of trouble. There is a reason for this. I don’t have to spell it out. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/69 "2005-02-06T05:23:18Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > I tend to believe that the posts on this message board fully reflect the personality in of the poster in real life. I know mine do. I find it doubtful that the real life **Liberal** is as wonderful as some paint him to be, or as nasty as others paint him to be. Doesn’t really matter, though, does it? We’re dealing with online personas; that’s the matter at hand. Whether he’s a dick or a saint in real life matters not a whit, nor does it matter what you or I are like in real life; the delta, or lack of it, between the RL personality and the SDMB personality’s not a relevant variable. If we’re talking about how much we contribute to this message board, all that matters is what comes across in the posts. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/70 "2005-02-06T05:25:43Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Doesn’t really matter, though, does it? We’re dealing with online personas; that’s the matter at hand. Whether he’s a dick or a saint in real life matters not a whit, nor does it matter what you or I are like in real life; the delta, or lack of it, between the RL personality and the SDMB personality’s not a relevant variable. > > If we’re talking about how much we contribute to this message board, all that matters is what comes across in the posts. Hell, didn’t people in the past say how nice **Joe Cool** and **Jersey Diamond** were in real life? Except of course, when they were sniping at people behind their backs, and going around shitting on everyone who wasn’t as Holy and Saved as they were? ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/71 "2005-02-06T05:28:57Z")
> [@essvee](#): > > For such a purported intelligent, passionate individual, he is spending way less time in GD, where his ideas and passion could fuel interesting threads. No, that doesn’t work either. The _Polar Express_ thread that **Hentor** referred to, and the various Libertarianism threads **Dewey** is talking about are classic examples. The debates don’t serve any useful purpose, because **Liberal** doesn’t know enough about the subjects he chooses to debate, can’t construct a sensible argument, and won’t admit defeat. They end up as trainwrecks, just like the Pit threads. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/72 "2005-02-06T05:30:17Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Erudite? Formal training in logic? Don’t make me laugh. I also doubt very much that he has any formal training in logic. He can copy proofs and he can blow smoke, but I’m not convinced that he actually understands any of it. If he ever made any formal study of the subject then he missed the entire point. The purpose of both logic and the special language of symbols used in formal proofs is to clarify, not obfuscate. I could write much the same post that **Jonathan Chance** just did, but replacing “Libertarianism” with “Philosophy”. I did study Philosophy formally. I don’t have an advanced degree in the subject like some other posters do, but I did a major in it as an undergrad. I devoted long hours to pounding out formal proofs. I wrote some pretty fine papers. I worked hard at it. I tutored other students. I care about Philosophy, and I’d like other people to care about it too. I know lots of people think it’s useless or just plain nonsense, but I believe that if they understood what Philosophy was really all about they’d appreciate it more. Maybe they wouldn’t enjoy it the way I do, maybe they wouldn’t think it was worth their time, but I don’t think they’d dismiss it as a bunch of pretentious rubbish that doesn’t really mean anything. I don’t think they’d believe that its only purpose is to help some people pretend to be smarter than others. I can only guess at **Lib** ’s true feelings about Philosophy, but I can read what he writes. It usually looks like a bunch of pretentious rubbish that doesn’t mean anything, and that its only purpose is to allow him to pretend to be smarter than others. I find this personally upsetting. It’s the way I imagine some of our good Christian posters must be feel when they hear people say things like “God hates you!” or “I’m glad those sinners are going to Hell!” I mean it gets me in the stomach. Perhaps this is foolish of me. **Lib** himself has called me worse than that for expressing this view before. But it makes me sick to see the way he twists something beautiful that should be used to help people understand things better into just another tool to help him to show off, insult others, and try to confuse them into saying he’s right. ---
**Author:** ![Profane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e47774/32.png) [@Profane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profane)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/73 "2005-02-06T05:41:06Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Personally, I think you give him too much credit to call him a “devil’s advocate”. An effective devil’s advocate could _argue_ a contrary position and not just follow the line of: > > Poster 1: Premise > Poster 2: Agreement > Liberal: Hairsplitting objection > Poster 1: Analysis of objection, slight modification of Premise to eliminate objection > Poster 2: Further analysis > Liberal: Repetition of hairsplitting objection > Poster 1: Clarification of modification > Poster 2: Questioning of Liberal’s motive > Liberal(1): Repetition of hairsplitting objection > Liberal(2): Attack on Poster 2, questioning Poster 2’s intelligence > Poster 1: Statement of evidence that objection is baseless > Poster 2: Return attack on Liberal > Poster 3: Analysis and support of premise, including modification > Liberal(1): Repetition of hairsplitting objection > Liberal(2): Pithy comment on Poster 2’s probable status as a simian, mention of minor typographical/spelling error in Poster 2’s comment > Liberal(3): Scrambled philosophical jargon vaguely dismissing modification > Liberal(4): General comment on democrats/leftists/liberals. Appeal to pity as a lone set-upon conservative voice. Exactly. I get so tired of reading a thread in the pit that starts off as a good discussion, then descends into chaos when Liberal shows up. A thread about schools? He drops in to say they should be abolished. Want to complain about your job, or unfair corporate practices? Not with Lib around. Dare to disagree with him you you must be some kind of drooling moron. It’s frustrating, and it’s also getting extremely old. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/74 "2005-02-06T05:55:51Z")
Shows compulsive drive to overcome anxiety and feelings of inferiority by constantly overcompensating. Needs incessant attention; enjoys both negative and positive comments as they keep him in the board’s “limelight.” This very thread feeds his addiction. Likely a social misfit with few friends. His life clearly _centers_ around posting on the internet as that is the only place where he can come even close to living-out his delusions of grandeur. End result = as boring as he is predictable and pedantic, a consumate a-hole with a rather insipid keyboard. Of note: I am feeling rather kind this late night. Cheers. ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/75 "2005-02-06T06:36:22Z")
> [@kung fu lola](#): > > Lib? > > I pity his wife as I have never pitied another woman. > > In this thread alone, he has earned the title of “condescending asshole”, “deliberately obtuse”, “batshit crazy”, “smug”, “thick-headed”, “not very bright”, “sanctimonious”, and “[an](oh no square brackets!) attention whore”. > > **Just imagine what he’s like in real life**. :eek: As Lib’s wife, you can place your pity elsewhere where it truly needs to be. I have no need or use for it. He’s quite nearly the perfect husband! Yes, he loves perfection - as our Lord Is. Yes, details are important, because without one, two, or three of them, you don’t have all the facts. Ask a good lawyer, doctor, surgeon, scientist, or engineer, for example, if details matter to them. Yes, he will stand his ground and not compromise his principles. It’s called character and his veracity is a witness of that. How many like him do you know? And yes, he has a laser-sharp mind that cuts through the bullshit and sees things clearly for what they are. I, for one, value that. Lib occasionally get cranky, like I do whenever I visit these boards. I’m often put off by what I read on these boards so I usually stay away. Life is too short. Although I greatly enjoy reading posts from Tris & Poly [hi guys! :)], aside from them, I don’t really feel I’m missing much … I’ve got the best at home. So you see, your pity is really misplaced, but thank you for your concern. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/76 "2005-02-06T06:42:25Z")
> [@Edlyn](#): > > Yes, he will stand his ground and not compromise his principles. It’s called character and his veracity is a witness of that. He lies constantly. > [@Edlyn](#): > > How many like him do you know? Not too fucking many, thank God. > [@](#): > > And yes, he has a laser-sharp mind that cuts through the bullshit and sees things clearly for what they are. He sees motes and not beams. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/77 "2005-02-06T06:43:55Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > I will simply add that **Lib** ’s positions are held both intellectually and emotionally, that he lives out what he says, and that I have outstandingly good reason to know this personally, daily, in real life. He knows what I’m talking about, as do one or two others. But **he lives his words**. If he is a trifle nitpicky at times, well, so are many of us, for one reason or another. But when it’s time to get down and dirty, there’s no one I’d rather have on my side. You know, I’d believe that if only I could even see it on this message board. But Liberal, when he feels he’s under attack, becomes meaner than just about anyone else around. He offers guru-like pronouncements on civility and kindness and compassion, and yet he can’t sustain that attitude even within the confines of a text medium where he could hold himself back if he chose to. When Liberal is angry, or just feels that too many people are disagreeing with him, he becomes the meanest, most unpleasant, most uncivil poster around; he’s not just mean in an unfair, arbitrary way, he’s mean enough that it turns my stomach and makes me wonder just how unhappy he must be inside to say the things he does. > [@Starving Artist](#): > > The overwhelming and unrelenting liberal bias here (not that there’s anything wrong with that; there are plenty of conservative-biased boards too) can try the patience of those of us who don’t share that point of view. It’s easy to let an unintended tone of impatience or condescention creep into your posts when you feel like what you’re reading is so predictably biased on a board that is supposed to be enlightened and fighting ignorance. And man do y’all ever milk it. Whatever the point being debated, if a conservative ox is being gored, immediately come the screeches that “this message board has such a liberal bias!” And when y’all get called on being jerks (which, obviously, is a minority of the time, and mostly a small but overly-vocal minority _coughBrutuscough_) the screeches turn into, “We have to act like this! How can we be nice on message board with _such a liberal bias!_” P.S.: I might be happier if people would stop with the implication that Liberal needs to scale down the smarts for the great unwashed. If not having studied formal logic makes me vulgar and common, so be it, but frankly, Liberal misuses way too many terms for me to be fully convinced of his intellectual superiority. His constant “ontology this” and “epistemology that” are the message board equivalent of celebrity name-dropping. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/78 "2005-02-06T07:47:59Z")
That’s it. I’m gone. My. You _are_ a bunch of nasty people, huh. Could you be more obnoxious if you tried? Enjoy kicking a man collectively? As I said in _cough_ **Hamlet** ’s thread: It’s a pity that all bastards seem to have made the STMB their favorite bashing club. I’ve always had a weakness for Americans. My ignorance on _that_ is certainly solved. **Liberal** , even though we think totally different on almost ALL issues, I like and admire you. You have a great sense of humor and more wisdom in your little pinky than all posters in this thread. I wish you all the best. To all arseholes: bye. ---
**Author:** ![TVeblen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/4bbf92/32.png) [@TVeblen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVeblen)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/79 "2005-02-06T08:00:26Z")
An interjection is in order. Yeah, **kung fu lola** made an unflattering assumption about what she thought about what it’d be like living with **Lib** full time in real life, based on extrapolations from posts on a message board. **Edyln** , his wife–who rarely posts–understandably opted to respond from her perspective. Enough. That’s it. We aren’t hosting a “Is X _really_ such a doodyhead in person?” debate. The only thing that’s germane in this discussion is board behavior. Leave the SDMB right outta anything beyond that. It’s plenty without family and friends feeling like they have to enter the fray. **Demostylus** , we’ve gotten the message. You hate **Lib’s** guts. I’m not remotely taking _any_ side here when I say your behavior has tipped over the line into stalking. We’ve also gotten the message that **Lib’s** behavior annoys people. Your crusading zeal has gotten just as old. Ratchet it back already. Sheesh. TVeblen For the SDMB ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2005, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529/80 "2005-02-06T08:17:46Z")
**gum** , I don’t quite know what to make of your “departure.” Is it from this thread, this forum, or this board altogether? I hope it’s only the thread. You’re a good guy, and one of only a dozen or so that I’ve grown to like on a personal level. Regarding Americans as a whole, I would urge you to remember that this board and its participants do not come close to being representative of America and/or Americans as a whole. Plus, you’re in the Pit, where assholism is de rigeur. In fact, one can find himself being chastised if he is too polite, considerate, well-mannered or humane here. There are lots and lots of good, caring, supportive and generous people on this board. Most of them are to be found in the other forums. There are lots and lots of very smart, well-educated people here, as well. Most of them can be found in the other forums. There are lots and lots of sophisticated, worldly, interesting people on this board. Most of them can be found in the other forums. The Pit attracts assholes because it’s the place on this board where assholism is supposed to take itself. But even within this forum good things happen. I spend most of my time here; my post ratio would be much more heavily Pit-related than **Liberal’s**. But this is where interesting stuff happens and it’s where friends and enemies are made. Just about every friend I’ve made here at the Dope has become a friend through interaction in the Pit. So, despite the fact that many of the people in the Pit act like assholes, it doesn’t mean most of the people on the Dope (or America itself) are assholes. But I will agree with you that this thread has brought out an unusually large amount of dispicable behavior on the part of some of those who have an axe to grind where **Liberal** is concerned. To me, it just goes to show the tremendous amount of resentment that can be built up on the part of some of those who have been defeated by his intelligence and willingness to stick to his guns despite being vastly outnumbered in a thread, which is usually the case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/allright-ill-do-it-liberal/288529.md?page=5)