# (Almost) all across the spectrum, most Americans favor "path to citizenship" for illegals **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 19, 2011, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061 "2011-06-19T19:56:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/21 "2011-06-20T00:21:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > The kids assimilate, and if there is any slowness of assimilating by the parents, it’s probably because they have to lead at least partially secret lives. But the data shows that legal Hispanic immigrants are assimilating as fast if not faster than other immigrant groups. Not true. Stephen Trejo and Jeffrey Groger studied the intergenerational progress of Mexican-American immigrants in, “[Falling Behind or Moving Up?”](http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_502JGR.pdf) They discovered that third-generation Mexican-Americans were no more likely to finish high school than second-generation Mexican-Americans. Fourth-generation Mexican-Americans did no better than third. ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/22 "2011-06-20T00:26:49Z")
The people against it are a lot more fired up over it than those for. On one side you have “over my dead body” and on the other “yeah sure, that would be nice i guess”. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/23 "2011-06-20T00:32:11Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Not true. Stephen Trejo and Jeffrey Groger studied the intergenerational progress of Mexican-American immigrants in, “[Falling Behind or Moving Up?”](http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_502JGR.pdf) > > They discovered that third-generation Mexican-Americans were no more likely to finish high school than second-generation Mexican-Americans. Fourth-generation Mexican-Americans did no better than third. Does that contradict anything **John Mace** said, are you just posting random links? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/24 "2011-06-20T00:34:40Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Not true. Stephen Trejo and Jeffrey Groger studied the intergenerational progress of Mexican-American immigrants in, “[Falling Behind or Moving Up?”](http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/report/R_502JGR.pdf) > > They discovered that third-generation Mexican-Americans were no more likely to finish high school than second-generation Mexican-Americans. Fourth-generation Mexican-Americans did no better than third. There’s a lot more to assimilation than HS graduation rates. A better measure of assimilation, if you want to focus on one thing, is fluency in English. That is no different than earlier groups of immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/25 "2011-06-20T00:43:24Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > Does that contradict anything **John Mace** said, are you just posting random links? **John Mace** wrote: > [@](#): > > The kids assimilate, and if there is any slowness of assimilating by the parents, it’s probably because they have to lead at least partially secret lives. But the data shows that legal Hispanic immigrants are assimilating as fast if not faster than other immigrant groups. Compared to what other immigrant groups? Asian immigrants seem to be outperforming locals in terms of education. > [@](#): > > intergenerational improvement in education, jobs, and earnings does not occur at a predictably high rate, the political pressure to more carefully monitor > immigration will surely intensify. The findings in this report are a new > and important contribution for those making the calculations, because > Grogger and Trejo focus exclusively on Mexican Americans. Their > initial findings do not present an especially hopeful portrait. > > The findings also raise the prospect that widening income disparity > in California will continue well into the future and perhaps will even > generate a further widening of the gap between the top and bottom levels > of the state’s income distribution. PPIC research fellow Deborah Reed > concluded in her most recent analysis of income disparity in the state > that the “growing overrepresentation of immigrants in the bottom > categories [of wages] has contributed strongly to rising income inequality > in California.” While many Mexican American immigrants start out at > the bottom of the wage scale, it is neither desirable nor expected that they > will languish there for two more generations. Grogger and Trejo suggest > that this prospect is a real possibility for some, and that public policy > must be finely tuned to offset this possibility… (page iv) > > To better understand the current and future economic prospects of > Mexican Americans, we analyze the intergenerational progress of > Mexican-origin workers in the California and U.S. labor markets. In the > first part of our report, we use recent data from the Current Population > Survey (CPS) to compare the educational attainment and hourly earningsof whites, blacks, and three generations of Mexican Americans (with the > first generation consisting of Mexican immigrants, the second generation > including the U.S.-born children of Mexican immigrants, and the third > generation referring to their grandchildren and later descendants). We > find that people of Mexican descent acquire much less schooling than > other groups in the United States, and that this educational deficit is the > main reason for the relatively low earnings of Mexican-origin workers. > > Substantial education and wage deficits persist between U.S.- > born Mexican Americans and other Americans. Among the third generation, for example, Mexican Americans average a year and a half less schooling and about 25 percent lower wages than non-Hispanic whites. page vii ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/26 "2011-06-20T00:46:26Z")
Oh well, another thread I’m done with. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/27 "2011-06-20T01:13:33Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > Compared to what other immigrant groups? Asian immigrants seem to be outperforming locals in terms of education. Good. So what? ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/28 "2011-06-20T01:21:57Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Good. So what? So, having an increasingly unskilled workforce and groups that require ongoing affirmative action doesn’t seem such a good idea. This is a point Jason Richwine makes [here](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=): > [@](#): > > Persistent ethnic disparities in socioeconomic status add to a sense of “otherness” felt by minorities outside the economic mainstream. Though it is encouraging that Hispanics often profess a belief in the American creed, an undercurrent of this “otherness” is still apparent. For example, a Pew Hispanic Center Survey in 2002 asked American-born Hispanics “which terms they would use first to describe themselves.” Less than half (46 percent) said “American,” while the majority said they primarily identified either with their ancestral country or as simply Hispanic or Latino. This feeling of otherness probably helps spur explicit ethnic organizing and lobbying. Already there is a long list of Hispanic interest groups — the National Council of La Raza, the Congressional Hispanic Caucus Institute, the U.S. Hispanic Chamber of Commerce, the National Association of Hispanic Journalists, and the Hispanic Lobbyists Association, to name just a handful. If Hispanics fail to assimilate, these groups will remain powerful, and they will continue to encourage Hispanics and other Americans to view our society in terms of inter-ethnic competition. It is difficult to see how a unifying national culture can be preserved and extended in that environment. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/29 "2011-06-20T01:32:28Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Oh well, another thread I’m done with. Indeed. Brown people are stupid. Almost as stupid as black people. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/30 "2011-06-20T01:39:22Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Indeed. Brown people are stupid. Almost as stupid as black people. If you say so. Rather than emotional rhetoric perhaps you could, you know, actually back up your assimilation claim? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/31 "2011-06-20T01:39:43Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > So, having an increasingly unskilled workforce and groups that require ongoing affirmative action doesn’t seem such a good idea. And that threat follows from Asians being good in math or whatever **how?** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/32 "2011-06-20T01:43:23Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > If you say so. Rather than emotional rhetoric perhaps you could, you know, actually back up your assimilation claim? 😕 WTF?! **American history** proves that. Most of our ancestors were wretched refuse. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/33 "2011-06-20T01:48:45Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > 😕 WTF?! **American history** proves that. Most of our ancestors were wretched refuse. You didn’t read the Richwine article or the [cite](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=)I provided in my initial post. > [@](#): > > They’re not just like the Irish — or the Italians or the Poles, for that matter. The large influx of Hispanic immigrants after 1965 represents a unique assimilation challenge for the United States. Many optimistic observers have assumed — incorrectly, it turns out — that Hispanic immigrants will follow the same economic trajectory European immigrants did in the early part of the last century. Many of those Europeans came to America with no money and few skills, but their status steadily improved. Their children outperformed them, and their children’s children were often indistinguishable from the “founding stock.” The speed of economic assimilation varied somewhat by ethnic group, but three generations were typically enough to turn “ethnics” into plain old Americans. > > This would be the preferred outcome for the tens of millions of Hispanic Americans, who are significantly poorer and less educated on average than native whites. When immigration skeptics question the wisdom of importing so many unskilled people into our nation at one time, the most common response cites the remarkable progress of Europeans a century ago. “People used to say the Irish or the Poles would always be poor, but look at them today!” For Hispanics, we are led to believe, the same thing will happen. > > But that claim isn’t true. Though about three-quarters of Hispanics living in the U.S. today are either immigrants or the children of immigrants, a significant number have roots here going back many generations. We have several ways to measure their intergenerational progress, and the results leave little room for optimism about their prospects for assimilation. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/34 "2011-06-20T02:24:00Z")
Assimilation is not the same as economic achievement. The shit you are posting has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/35 "2011-06-20T02:26:00Z")
> [@Tugboater1970](#): > > Well the way I see it…they were here illegally. That means they broke the law staying here. What proof do we have that they will not continue to break our laws? The same proof you have that people who habitually exceed the speed limit will observe homicide laws. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/36 "2011-06-20T02:32:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Assimilation is not the same as economic achievement. The shit you are posting has nothing to do with the subject of this thread. It absolutely does, demographic data and statistics are relevant in deciding whether to make an exception for a large population. Especially given current economic conditions: > [@](#): > > These figures are likely to improve as the economic recovery continues, but probably not by much. The pattern of the past four decades suggests a ratchet effect: the share of poorly educated men in work falls in recessions and fails to recover fully in subsequent expansions. The effect could be especially strong this time. … > > The main reason why fewer men are working is that sweeping structural changes in rich economies have reduced the demand for all less-skilled workers. Manufacturing has declined as a share of GDP, and productivity growth has enabled factories to produce more with fewer people. Technological advances require higher skills. For the low-skilled, low demand has meant lower wages, both relative and absolute. [http://www.economist.com/node/18618613](http://www.economist.com/node/18618613) ---
**Author:** ![G-SE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f0a364/32.png) [@G-SE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/G-SE)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/37 "2011-06-20T03:11:33Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > But the data shows that legal Hispanic immigrants are assimilating as fast if not faster than other immigrant groups. According to a recent [study](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-immigration-latinos-idUSTRE7417QM20110502?feedType=RSS&sp=true) by the Migration Policy Institute released May 2, 2011: > [@](#): > > Latinos lag behind other immigrants in weaving themselves into the fabric of American society… > [@John\_Mace](#): > > You know those numbers are not correct, right? Even though his numbers are a bit off, according to [census data](http://www.census.gov/population/www/socdemo/hispanic/hispanic_pop_presentation.html), Hispanic population % in the US has grown from 9.0% in 1990 to 16.3% in 2010 (an increase of 81% in 20 years) So even if his numbers are off, they are still shocking to some. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/38 "2011-06-20T05:08:42Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > You didn’t read the Richwine article or the [cite](http://nrd.nationalreview.com/article/?q=YjQ4N2EyMTQ4NzZjZmNlOWQwN2RiNTZjMWZiZDY4YzQ=)I provided in my initial post. > > > [@](#): > > > > We have several ways to measure their intergenerational progress, and the results leave little room for optimism about their prospects for assimilation. Well, to begin with, it come from a man who confuses “progress” with “assimilation.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/39 "2011-06-20T05:09:48Z")
> [@Chen019](#): > > It absolutely does, demographic data and statistics are relevant in deciding whether to make an exception for a large population. What, you mean path-to-citizenship/amnesty? We never (offiicially) allowed an applicant’s poverty or ignorance to be an impediment before; only a little knowledge is required to pass a citizenship test. ---
**Author:** ![Chen019](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f19dbf/32.png) [@Chen019](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chen019)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061/40 "2011-06-20T05:12:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > An exception to **what?!** To the normal citizenship process. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/almost-all-across-the-spectrum-most-americans-favor-path-to-citizenship-for-illegals/586061.md?page=3)