# Alphabetical order by first name? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 18, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383 "2021-05-18T18:14:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/1 "2021-05-18T18:14:03Z")
Is that something that is common or becoming common now? I noticed it in the list of signees in [this](https://ignemployees.medium.com/an-open-letter-to-leadership-at-ign-ziff-davis-and-j2-global-f7171d5ad42f) open letter from employees of IGN. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/2 "2021-05-18T18:27:42Z")
When names are written “Firstname Lastname” (which is the way people commonly sign their names) and you ask a computer to sort the entries, that’s what you get. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/3 "2021-05-18T20:04:16Z")
I see it in at least two systems I interact with often. When substitute teachers sign in in the main office, the list is alphabetized by substitute’s first name. And one of the online textbooks I use for homework for my students, one of the default orders it uses for students is alphabetized by first name (I say “one of the defaults”, because sometimes it defaults to last name, and some of the times it defaults to random order. It’s a very frustrating program). I think Zoom might do it sometimes, too. But then, you can’t count on Zoom names having any particular format: They could be just last names, or just first names, or both, or nicknames of any number of words, etc. There’s not really much you can do there but treat the entire name, as given, as a single string. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/4 "2021-05-18T20:15:23Z")
One issue is that it’s a complicated task trying to parse any international list to identify the surname - Spanish and Chinese names for example don’t follow the same pattern. I can imagine that when it’s not important to try to identify the surname, it’s simpler (and perhaps less likely to cause confusion or even offense) if you just don’t try. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/5 "2021-05-18T20:20:54Z")
And so many people like **Ed Zott** i are tired of going last all the time. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2021, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/6 "2021-05-18T20:21:47Z")
I have seen the convention where the “surname” is helpfully capitalized: MAO Ze-dong Shahin NAJAFI HARISHCHANDRA ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/7 "2021-05-19T01:11:02Z")
It’s also more likely in environments where the names can be screen names and not (necessarily) people’s given names. Michael Jones going under “j” for Jones is one thing, but do we file Thudlow\_Boink under “b”? Boink probably isn’t a surname. So the convention reverts to alphabetizing by the entire char string making no assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/8 "2021-05-19T01:28:08Z")
MS Outlook has had the option to alphabetize your contacts as “Last, First” or “First Last” since the Win 3.1 days. Which when applied to countries with different naming conventions than the USA of course requires that whoever creates the contact puts the culturally correct part of the name in Outlook’s US-centrically named “first” and “last” fields ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2021, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/9 "2021-05-19T02:02:45Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I have seen the convention where the “surname” is helpfully capitalized: > > MAO Ze-dong > Shahin NAJAFI > HARISHCHANDRA I just don’t find your claim credible. Mao’s ideas didn’t align with Harishchandra at all, he would never have cosigned an open letter with him. ---
**Author:** ![paulmarkj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@paulmarkj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulmarkj)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2021, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/10 "2021-05-22T14:48:33Z")
Software finds it difficult to convert ‘firstname lastname’ into ‘lastname firstname’, I’ve tried and the real world throws up somqme difficulties. Most cases are easy: John Smith becomes Smith John. I think Andrew Lloyd Weber become Lloyd Weber Andrew but Anne Marie Presley becomes Presley Anne Marie The algorithm has to have real-world knowledge. The actor Terry-Thomas: has just one name: Terry-Thomas. What about the singer Anne Sofie Von Otter? The seemingly comqmqprehensive ‘[12 rules of filing](https://www.webpages.uidaho.edu/cte419/Offline-Modules/M6/ARMA-12_Filing_Rules.htm)’ does not even touch on this problem. So, just keeping the namqme as it is solves the problem. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2021, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/11 "2021-05-22T14:59:00Z")
As always, if the data starts out with the human separating given name from family name and those are stored separately the problem is trivial. But for a few internationalization reasons, and a LOT of laziness, that approach is becoming _passe_ in exchange for one single long input box and storage field for the whole name as a unit. Which, ref lots of folks above, simply cannot be machine-parsed reliably. Once the breakpoint information is lost or never captured, it can’t be reliably re-created. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/12 "2021-05-23T04:17:30Z")
> [@paulmarkj](#): > > Software finds it difficult to convert ‘firstname lastname’ into ‘lastname firstname’, I’ve tried and the real world throws up somqme difficulties. > > Most cases are easy: John Smith becomes Smith John. > > I think Andrew Lloyd Weber become Lloyd Weber Andrew but Anne Marie Presley becomes Presley Anne Marie It’s trivially easy to write software that parses your examples above correctly—but of course, there are many other scenarios that would be problematic to get right, some of which you list later in your post. In French, at least, the convention is generally to write the “last name” first and in all caps. This makes sorting easy, but that’s just one cultural approach out of thousands. IMHO, that’s why this is a hard problem for computers: it hinges on human culture. LSLguy is right: the trick is to get the person themselves to indicate how they want their name to appear. But even that isn’t trivial. “Last name” will confuse people who use the term “family name.” And then there’s “given name,” “surname,” “Christian name” (archaic, yes, but _someone_ will use the term in their form). And that’s just in English! It’s a thorny problem—I’d probably make the same choice the major videoconferencing company’s have. No programmer wants to be responsible for turning Lady Gaga into Gaga Lady in front of a national audience. ---
**Author:** ![Schnitte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/schnitte/32/9033_2.png) [@Schnitte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Schnitte)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/13 "2021-05-23T10:23:33Z")
That’s originally a French convention AFAIK, but in the world of diplomacy and international organisations, which has a strong influence from French culture, it’s quite common. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2021, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/14 "2021-05-23T18:11:26Z")
> [@EdelweissPirate](#): > > It’s trivially easy to write software that parses your examples above correctly— How? The famous Andrew Lloyd Weber has a double last name, but Weber by itself is also a last name, and Lloyd by itself is also a given name. There’s no reason why a parent named Weber couldn’t give their son the first name Andrew and the middle name Lloyd. The computer would then be presented with two identical inputs, for which it was expected to produce different outputs. ---
**Author:** ![EdelweissPirate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8491ac/32.png) [@EdelweissPirate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EdelweissPirate)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2021, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/15 "2021-05-24T20:53:13Z")
Mea culpa. You got me—I was unaware that Andy’s last name was an in-hyphenated compound name. I sincerely thought his last name was Webber, and I was just wrong. I further misunderstood the poster I was replying to. I thought they used “becomes” to mean “when incorrectly parsed,” but in reality, I’m now pretty sure they meant “when _correctly_ parsed.” What’s more, my kids have un-hyphenated compound last names (with spaces, just like ALW’s) and I have to deal with people not getting this all the time. Embarrassing as that is, it does illustrate my point that this is difficult for computers (and many people, myself included) because it is so tightly interwoven with culture. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/16 "2021-05-25T09:30:36Z")
The Contacts List on my cell phone is ordered alphabetically by first name. I assume this is true for most. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/17 "2021-05-25T11:44:35Z")
That’s almost certainly a setting you can tweak. At least on an Android. I’ve got mine configured to list contacts in [Last, First] order. So a jump to S gets me to the “Sanders, Colonel” part of the list, not to the “Sam Jones” part. I understand iPhones generally don’t allow users to set anything. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/18 "2021-05-25T12:48:46Z")
Even within cultures, it varies. So like a kids named Juan Martinez Hernandez might consider Martinez his last name, and Hernandez just an optional extra he uses in formal situations, or he might consider Hernandez his Last Last name. He may leave on or the other off because their wasn’t room on the form. He may well not have a middle name, so he may put “Martinez” in that slot. His mother may do it differently than he does, so the forms he fills out are different than the ones she does. Extra fun is when it’s not Juan, it’s Maria Fernanda Martinez Hernandez, which is read as only two names, both non-hyphenated doubles and which no form has room enough to handle. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/19 "2021-05-25T13:14:51Z")
It’s way past time we (government, business, and society in general) switch to forms and data systems that have room for 50 character given and 50 characcter family names. And that start using those terms, “given” and “family” over “first” and “last”. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 25, 2021, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383/20 "2021-05-25T14:29:07Z")
Aye; seconded. Not all cultures list names in the same order. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetical-order-by-first-name/942383.md?page=2)