# 'Alphabetizing' in languages with ideographic characters **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 28, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121 "2003-10-28T22:47:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/1 "2003-10-28T22:47:07Z")
In languages where words are represented by ideographic characters (for instance, Chinese, Korean, Japanese) how are, for instance, book titles sorted for faster access (in a library, maybe)? Bob ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/2 "2003-10-28T23:09:46Z")
First of all, Korean is written with an alphabet, and it has its own alphabetical order for alphabetization. Chinese characters are sorted according to the number of strokes in the radical part of the character. The one-stroke radical characters come first, then the two-stroke ones, and so on up. Japanese _kana_ syllabic characters are arranged according to their phonetic correspondence with the order of the Sanskrit alphabet. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/3 "2003-10-28T23:12:42Z")
I forgot, you asked about the sorting order of Chinese books in a library. AFAIK, Chinese library books are alphabetized according to their Pinyin romanization. The stroke-number order is used in Chinese and Japanese _kanji_ dictionaries. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/4 "2003-10-28T23:25:18Z")
> [@](#): > > **Jomo Mojo:** Japanese kana syllabic characters are arranged according to their phonetic correspondence with the order of the Sanskrit alphabet. _Sanskrit??_ The Japanese transliterate words into _Sanskrit_ to sort them? Now Romanji, I could understand. I’m not being snotty here; I’m just genuinely surprised. By the way, **urban1z** , a good book on Chinese for a Westerner who is curious about it, but doesn’t have the time or inclination to actually learn it, is _Speaking of Chinese_. I’m not sure if it’s still in print, but it’s worth finding anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Joe\_Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Random)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/5 "2003-10-28T23:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by urban1z \* > \*\*In languages where words are represented by ideographic characters (for instance, Chinese, Korean, Japanese) how are, for instance, book titles sorted for faster access (in a library, maybe)? \*\* As far as Japanese is concerned, there _is_ a sort of alphabetical order based on the pronunciation of words. Japanese contains the following phonyms: ```auto n wa ra ya ma ha na ta sa ka a ri mi hi ni chi shi ki i ru yu mu hu nu tsu su ku u re me he ne te se ke e wo ro yo mo ho no to so ko o ``` The correct order would be to read from top to bottom, and from the right to the left (so start at **a** and read down to **o** , then move to **ka**. Also, the “k”, “s”, “t”, and “h” columns can be changed from unvoiced to voiced consonents (by a slight alteration to the Japanese kana for the phonym) to become respectively “g”, “z”, “d”, and “b”. The change from unvoiced to voiced does not alter the dictionary order, so you’ll see words like “taishou” and “daishou” right next to each other in the dictionary. Also also, the “h” column can be modified in a different way to become “p”. The result is the same as above, as far as dictionary order is concerned. ---
**Author:** ![Tradnor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cab0a1/32.png) [@Tradnor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tradnor)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/6 "2003-10-29T02:29:16Z")
And that ordering for Japanese is based on Sanskrit, as **Jomo Mojo** said. See [this page](http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/kana-order-origin.html) from the alternative sci.lang.japan FAQ for the history on that. There is another (older and now less common) ordering in Japanese based on an old poem that uses each character exactly once. This is known as the i-ro-ha ordering, as those are the first three characters. For the full order see [this page](http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/afaq/iroha.html). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/7 "2003-10-29T03:53:43Z")
I believe in Chinese the ideograms are organized according to the number of radicals in them? It’s that way in Chinese-English dictionaries, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/8 "2003-10-29T04:05:26Z")
Sorry, poor reading comprehension moment. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/9 "2003-10-29T07:08:31Z")
…\…double stew, checks, eye, and tree, now I’ve said my ray, bee, seas, next time won’t you sing with me? ---
**Author:** ![xejkh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/22d042/32.png) [@xejkh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xejkh)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/10 "2003-10-29T14:39:23Z")
Chinese books and dictionaries are basically organised based on sound, eg in a Pinyin system the author Ba Jin would be before Lu Xun, or in the bopomofo (zhuyin) system Lu Xun would be before Cao Yu (l before c in the zhuyin system). Dictionaries are either 1. organised by radicals in ascending number of strokes, then 2. by the number of strokes in the rest of the character, then 3. by the initial stroke in that portion of the character (which follows a particular system: IIRC horizontal (heng) before vertical (shu) before “slant” (pie) etc) or organised by sound - see above. I hope this helps! ---
**Author:** ![Floater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/dc4da7/32.png) [@Floater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Floater)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2003, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alphabetizing-in-languages-with-ideographic-characters/210121/11 "2003-10-29T15:15:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by urban1z \* > how are, for instance, book titles sorted for faster access (in a library, maybe)? As for libraries my educated guess, as a professional book sorter, is that no matter where you are, as long as you are within a system that uses a latin alphabet, things are sorted according to the sorting rules in that particular language (or library, or bibliography or whatever) depending on whatever transliteration/transcription system you use.