# Alt English History: Whose Survival Might have had the most effect? Whose death? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 2, 2009, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061 "2009-05-02T03:28:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/21 "2009-05-05T17:42:07Z")
> [@](#): > > Leo Amery? Duff Cooper? Anthony Eden, if he had grown a pair? Personally, I can’t see any of them replacing Churchill. It wasn’t just a matter of his policies - it was also his character which inspired people to follow him. Others might have said the same things but would people have listened? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/22 "2009-05-05T18:01:01Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > If Richard III had defeated Henry Tudor at the Battle of Bosworth Field, and either killed him in the battle or had him hung in the market square in Leicester as a traitor, English history would have been very different I don’t know about _very_ different. Richard III was quite competent and I’m not sure just how differently he would have steered England relative to Henry VII. Perhaps the most curious difference in his regime was/would have been its rooting in the north, highly anomalous in English history. But I would suspect that in a generation or two the south’s greater population and economic base would have returned that flip-flopping of political influence back to the status quo. * * * Re: William Audelin, the death of William Clito, son of Robert Curthose, was also very significant. Much as Henry seemed to have resist the idea, there were some in his court that actively backed Clito to succeed him after the White Ship disaster. Clito’s deprivation of his Normandy inheritance was still considered distinctly squirrely in many circles and he was not only friendly with the French king, as the last legitimate male-line member of the Norman dynasty he was an evocative choice. Given how quick much of the nobility jumped ship from Maud for female-line descendant Stephen after Henry died, it is likely William could have had the throne in a cake-walk. Further he had become count of Flanders. This may seem less significant on maps than Greater Anjou/ Aquitaine, but in fact like Normandy or the Isle-de-France, it was tightly centralized and administered and immensely wealthy to boot. The counts of Flanders could raise more knights than the king of France could from his personal demesnes. Further the economies of England and Flanders were deeply intertwined throughout the medieval and renaissance periods, as English wool fueled the Flemish textile industry. A William III Clito combining the two wealthiest principalities in France, tightly integrated with England, would have possibly been even more powerful than the Angevin empire of Henry II ( which was far more subdivided and contentious to rule ). ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/23 "2009-05-05T18:07:16Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > What if Napoleon had conquered Britain?Hitler? Napolean couldn’t have conquered Hitler! They weren’t even alive at the same time! ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/24 "2009-05-05T18:13:53Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Napolean couldn’t have conquered Hitler! They weren’t even alive at the same time! Yes, but if Napoleon had lived to the age of 170 years, and was still Emperor of France, Hitler would not have dared to attack France in 1939. Instead, he would have sought territory in the East (where the Romanovs would still be ruling, since World War I would not have happened). ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/25 "2009-05-05T18:27:47Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > What if the Spanish armada hadn’t of been beaten off at sea and successfully landed an army? > [@Tamerlane](#): > > The plan was a bit of a cock-up by Philip II. Yes, he should have thought long and hard about where to put his seamen. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/26 "2009-05-05T18:45:48Z")
the Spanish Armada had submarines? ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/27 "2009-05-05T19:20:08Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Yes, but if Napoleon had lived to the age of 170 years, and was still Emperor of France, Hitler would not have dared to attack France in 1939. Instead, he would have sought territory in the East (where the Romanovs would still be ruling, since World War I would not have happened). If you can sell Harry Turtledove on this idea, I will definitely read it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/28 "2009-05-05T19:37:59Z")
If Churchill was not PM, well maybe Operation Compass would have continued and seen the end of the Axis in Africa, instead of the ill fated greek expidition. Or Singapore might have actually been defended. Even if someone had accepted an end to hostilities, it would have only been temporary (like the ones in the Revolutionary/Napoleaonic wars were and most likely the UK would have reentered the conflict. No one power on the continen t was always the UK’s aim and had been for 400 years by that time. The absence of WSC is not going to change it. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_stafford_cripps/32/7167_2.png) [@The\_Stafford\_Cripps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Stafford_Cripps)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/29 "2009-05-05T20:08:30Z")
James VI & I had an eldest son, Prince Henry. He was being primed to be a wise successor but he died in 1612. If he’d lived there might have been no civil wars, no regicide, no 1688 revolution and perhaps no Union of the Parliaments. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/30 "2009-05-05T21:14:36Z")
If one of James II’s sons with his first wife had lived there would perhaps have been no Glorious Revolution. It was caused when his 2nd (Catholic and Italian) wife Maria de Modina gave birth to a healthy son; James’s Catholicism had only been tolerated because he had no sons with his Catholic wife so the throne would pass to the Anglican daughters of his (English and Anglican) first wife. However, James II had to fight a brief civil war when he came to the throne (more of an insurrection really) against one of his illegitimate nephews ([James Scott, D. of Monmouth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Scott,_1st_Duke_of_Monmouth)). Though Scott had a following due to his Protestantism the fact that he was illegitimate was alone enough to invalidate him as successor. Had James’ had a legitimate son I wonder if he would have fought a father v. son war had they bypassed him due to religion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/31 "2009-05-05T21:59:39Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > The plan was a bit of a cock-up by Philip II. He took two seperate good ideas, Santa Cruz’s ( better ) idea for a full-fleet naval descent ( not making use of or requiring the assistance of the army of Flanders ) and Parma’s for a surprise landing of an army at Kent ( not requiring linkage with a fleet ) and combined them to weaken the overall enterprise. Under the best of circumstances it is pretty unlikely Parma could have pulled off the main landing. > > If he had however, the veteran army of Flanders under the greatest commander of his day would have been a nightmare for the English. London was probably doomed. An ultimate failure of the Spanish venture would then probably hinge on just how much the populace and nobility continued to rally to Elizabeth if she managed to escape to flee north. Parma was hoping for a Catholic uprising - that may have been unrealistic. But at the very least he would have tied England down for years and left the country in chaos in its wake. And what comes next you can read [here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruled_Britannia) (Turtledove, natch). ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/32 "2009-05-06T01:59:46Z")
Harold Godwinson’s not dying (and winning) at Hastings would’ve meant a wholly different England. Catherine of Aragon dying before marrying Henry would’ve meant England as Catholic country for much longer ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2009, 9:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061/33 "2009-05-06T09:51:46Z")
> [@pravnik](#): > > Napolean couldn’t have conquered Hitler! They weren’t even alive at the same time! Actually I think that you’ll find that Napoleon was the “Man in the Iron mask” and Hitler was the original “Wandering Jew” and as both were space aliens who landed from UFOs originally and were immortal anyway,not only is my idea feasible but is the most likely version of what really happened historically. Its only because the Illuminati have censored history books worldwide that it is not more commonly known,dont you know ANYTHING? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-english-history-whose-survival-might-have-had-the-most-effect-whose-death/495061.md?page=1)