# Alt History Nazis invade the United States. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [October 23, 2010, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110 "2010-10-23T17:05:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/21 "2010-10-24T00:39:15Z")
**The Moon is Down** John Steinbeck. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2010, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/22 "2010-10-24T04:51:58Z")
_The Divide_ by William Overgard is a good novel about a United States that was conquered by Germany and Japan. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/23 "2010-10-25T20:23:52Z")
[The Ultimate Solution is an 1973 alternate history by Eric Norden](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Solution). Some of the links on that page go to other books on the theme we haven’t mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/24 "2010-10-25T20:28:13Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > If you are discussing alt.history, then there are a couple of changes needed to make a Nazi invasion of Britain more likely to succeed. The first is that the British didn’t invent RADAR and the 2nd is that Winston Churchill didn’t become Prime Minister. This whole commonplace idea that a fat, drunken, racist slob was personally responsible for preventing Britain falling to the Nazis is insane. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/25 "2010-10-25T20:35:07Z")
> [@villa](#): > > This whole commonplace idea that a fat, drunken, racist slob was personally responsible for preventing Britain falling to the Nazis is insane. Someone other than Churchill might have accepted a cease fire/truce; Churchill never would have. Churchill, a mule-headed stubborn die-hard British imperialist, had the good fortune to be Prime Minister when that was exactly what was needed. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/26 "2010-10-25T20:41:46Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > Someone other than Churchill might have accepted a cease fire/truce; Churchill never would have. Churchill, a mule-headed stubborn die-hard British imperialist, had the good fortune to be Prime Minister when that was exactly what was needed. Sorry for continuing the side track, but while it is true much of the aristocracy would have happily sold out to Hitler, and Churchill wouldn’t, nor would many other political figures. A country led by Bevan, Bevin or Atlee wouldn’t have bent the knee to Hitler either. And the left had been fighting fascism back when Churchill didn’t even know the word existed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/27 "2010-10-25T21:08:33Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > Realistically, the Nazis had almost no hope of conquering England, and none at all of conquering the United States. Unless they were [Jetpack Nazis!](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidJetpackHitler) See also [Ghostapo.](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Ghostapo) ---
**Author:** ![kath94](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/67e7ee/32.png) [@kath94](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kath94)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/28 "2010-10-25T21:30:17Z")
Fatherland by Robert Harris. [linky to Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)) ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/29 "2010-10-25T23:42:06Z")
> [@kath94](#): > > Fatherland by Robert Harris. > > [linky to Wikipedia article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_(novel)) That was a good book. I started [The Plot Against America](http://www.amazon.com/Plot-Against-America-Novel/dp/0618509283) but it was dragging a bit, so I’m not sure if the US does get Nazified or just has a close brush with it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2010, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/30 "2010-10-25T23:53:42Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > **The Moon is Down** > John Steinbeck. That wasn’t set in the U.S. The invaders (never specifically identified as Nazis) seize a small town in an unspecified Northern European country. ---
**Author:** ![twickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@twickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/twickster)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/31 "2010-10-26T00:04:32Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > 2000’s elections. **Capitaine Zombie** , you’re still fairly new here, so you may not be aware – we prefer that people not slip political commentary into Cafe Society threads. Please don’t do this again. Thanks, **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/32 "2010-10-26T00:24:34Z")
There’s Norman Spinrad’s [_The Iron Dream,_](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Dream) but none of the countries Feric Jagger and the Helder fight clearly represent the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/33 "2010-10-26T00:31:56Z")
Anyone else remember It Can’t Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis? > **[It Can't Happen Here](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can't_Happen_Here)** > > It Can't Happen Here is a 1935 dystopian political novel by American author Sinclair Lewis. Set in the fictionalized version of 1930s United States, it follows an American politician, Berzelius "Buzz" Windrip, who quickly rises to power to become the country's first outright dictator (in allusion to Adolf Hitler's rise to power in Nazi Germany) and Doremus Jessup, a newspaper editor who sees Windrip's fascist policies for what they are ahead of time and who becomes Windrip's most ardent critic Th... Home-grown Fascist takeover of the US, from the mid-1930s. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/34 "2010-10-26T02:29:56Z")
> [@twickster](#): > > **Capitaine Zombie** , you’re still fairly new here, so you may not be aware – we prefer that people not slip political commentary into Cafe Society threads. Please don’t do this again. > > Thanks, > > **twickster** , Cafe Society moderator Ok, was just going for the laughs here, not really trying to make a political point. Noted. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/35 "2010-10-26T02:39:44Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Anyone else remember It Can’t Happen Here by Sinclair Lewis? > [It Can't Happen Here - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_Can't_Happen_Here) > > Home-grown Fascist takeover of the US, from the mid-1930s. On that you’ve also got _K_ by Daniel Easterman (aka Denis MacEoin). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/36 "2010-10-26T03:00:07Z")
Stephen Fry’s _Making History_ is about a time-traveler’s plan to prevent Hitler’s birth. The result is _not_ the alternate history one might expect. (Yes, that’s British Actor Stephen Fry.) ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/37 "2010-10-26T08:56:59Z")
Turtledove’s _In The Presence of Mine Enemies_—I forget though if the US is “conquered” or just “defeated, with a puppet/sympathizer government installed.” (I haven’t read the book myself, yet) John Barnes’ _Finity_ features an Axis-dominated Earth. Not too great of a novel, in many ways, though. (I loved Kornbluth’s _Two Dooms_, though. If you ever get the chance, pick it up—along with the other stories in his collection.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/38 "2010-10-26T14:11:58Z")
> [@Ranchoth](#): > > Turtledove’s _In The Presence of Mine Enemies_—I forget though if the US is “conquered” or just “defeated, with a puppet/sympathizer government installed.” (I haven’t read the book myself, yet) From an [interesting review:](http://www.johnreilly.info/itpome.htm) > [@](#): > > Oswald Spengler, to take my favorite macrohistorian, was often wrong, but about the Nazis he was mostly right. He understood that the movement was in many ways simply incompetent. He saw them as nothing more than an incident in the era of Western modernity, an era which he expected to last through the 21st century. The end of the story for the modern world might, he thought, be a new Roman Empire. If it materialized, the sun would set on the West in a kind of political and spiritual peace. The alternative, as he saw it, was mere collapse and barbarian chaos. In either case, he had a lively sense in the 1930s that the end of history was still many generations away, and that the Nazis were dangerously deluded about their own importance. > > That, really, is the problem with most stories based on unbroken Nazi success. The premise takes the Nazis at their word about the importance of the movement, and credits them with the ability to make a peaceful desert of a world that should still have several generations of tumult remaining to it. This is anachronistic both forward and backward. It is unreasonable to expect to see Spengler’s imperium mundi in any timeline much before the 22nd century. It is equally unreasonable to see the mesmerizing power that political ideology held in the 1920s and '30s transposed to the early 21st century. Even Philip Dick, in The Man in the High Castle, probably stretched a point when he put a world of fanatical Nazis in the 1960s. Certainly we know that, long before the Communist regime collapsed, there were few real Marxists in the Soviet Union. > > Popular uprisings rarely overthrow ideologies; rather, even the secret police eventually lose interest. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/39 "2010-10-26T14:22:46Z")
> [@kath94](#): > > Fatherland by Robert Harris… Yes, a really great book; probably the best WW2 alt-hist novel ever, I’d say. But the U.S. isn’t invaded - in fact, the Cold War of Harris’s alternative 1964 is between Nazi Germany and the U.S., with the Soviet Union barely hanging on through guerilla warfare, and all of Western Europe under pro-Nazi puppet regimes. I’ll also endorse Len Deighton’s _SS-GB_, which might almost be set in the same universe as _Fatherland_. _Hitler Victorious_, edited by Gregory Benford, is an uneven but generally interesting collection of short stories about the Nazis winning WW2. ---
**Author:** ![control-z](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@control-z](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/control-z)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110/40 "2010-10-26T15:04:12Z")
Apparently Fatherland was made into a movie as well, but Amazon only has VHS: [http://www.amazon.com/Fatherland-VHS-Rutger-Hauer/dp/B00000EZTR/ref=sr\_1\_2?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1288105392&sr=1-2](http://www.amazon.com/Fatherland-VHS-Rutger-Hauer/dp/B00000EZTR/ref=sr_1_2?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1288105392&sr=1-2) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alt-history-nazis-invade-the-united-states/558110.md?page=3)