# Alternate English **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 2, 2012, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509 "2012-10-02T18:50:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/21 "2012-10-03T16:14:42Z")
In the first sentence, the boss is accusing me of having done something; whereas in the second sentence, he’s ordering me to do something. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/22 "2012-10-03T16:25:45Z")
::: singing :::: You say LEE-ver and I say LEH-ver, You say Weaver and I say Weather, Lever, Leh-ver, Weaver, Weather, let’s call the whole thing auf. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/23 "2012-10-03T16:46:01Z")
The language spoken here is Mercan. It sounds similar to English, thus leading to the confusion. One big difference is that vowels (pronounced vwlz) are any old sound that comes out of the mouth between consonants. Consonants (also known as constants, consnants, considents, and cosecants) are any old sounds that aren’t vwlz. Words in general (wrdz) are any old sound that made between other wrdz that can mean any old thing you want, cuz afferall, thur jus wrdz. Another feature of Mercan is that you get points for leaving out syllables (slablz). For instance the phrase “It is in the refrigerator” can be pronounced as “Tzina fridge”, reducing the slabl count from 9 to 3, making it worth 6 points (pintz). ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/24 "2012-10-03T16:51:53Z")
I see that Tri-Polar gets it. It’s now lunch time - squeet. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/25 "2012-10-03T16:54:00Z")
The past subjunctive is alive and well in British English. As for the present subjunctive, that may well be less common than in American English. In British English, the above example would probably become “my boss insisted that I should go to the board meeting in his place”. Some people do still use the present subjunctive (“insisted that I go”). I think I’ve used it myself sometimes. But I think that, as it has fallen out of use, it has come to sound a little formal. ---
**Author:** ![Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maggie_the_Ocelot)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/26 "2012-10-03T17:09:39Z")
Here’s a usage of the word “ever” that sounds very odd to me (I think it’s Irish, as the only place I’ve heard it was in songs written by Irish musicians): > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Black 47** : > Would you ever go over to Czechoslovakia, marry my daughter for me? > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Sinead O’Connor** : > And if you ever came home in the night, darlin’ I’d treat you right In American English, the first quote is a theoretical proposition only, and the second quote indicates that you do not, in fact, ever, ever come home in the night, it does not happen. However, in the context of the song, it’s clear that the speaker in the first quote is actually proposing a business deal and rather than being theoretical, it’s something he’d like to happen ASAP. The second quote in context seems to be a more wistful “if you would come home more often”. Am I reading the dialect properly? Is it just an Irish usage, or is this used elsewhere in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/27 "2012-10-03T17:34:34Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > The past subjunctive is alive and well in British English. As for the present subjunctive, that may well be less common than in American English. In British English, the above example would probably become “my boss insisted that I should go to the board meeting in his place”. Some people do still use the present subjunctive (“insisted that I go”). I think I’ve used it myself sometimes. But I think that, as it has fallen out of use, it has come to sound a little formal. The “should” form would be fine with me. It’s equally acceptable in American English. But I have encountered the other form often enough. Strangely enough, I first noticed it in the Harry Potter books, where it’s used repeatedly. And here’s an example from my current No. 1 TV show, _The Thick of It_: > [@](#): > > **John Duggan:** How was your your holiday? > > **Nicola Murray:** Well, you know. We wanted to go to Florida, but Malcolm \*suggested \*we \*\*went \*\*to Suffolk, so the kids were miserable, the weather was miserable, and Malcolm rang and shouted at me for looking miserable To me this is just wrong. The way it is stated, Malcolm was suggesting that Nicola _had already_ gone to Suffolk, when what she means is that Malcolm was instructing her to go to Suffolk instead of to Florida. So, she should have said “… Malcolm suggested we **go** to Suffolk …” ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/28 "2012-10-03T17:50:39Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > In the first sentence, the boss is accusing me of having done something; whereas in the second sentence, he’s ordering me to do something. This. e.g. “Yesterday, I was in the lab all day. When the CEO asked where I was, my boss insisted I **went** to the board meeting in his place, but he was either lying or mistaken.” rather than “I was planning to spend all of yesterday in the lab. My boss insisted I **go** to the board meeting in his place, so I went.” ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/29 "2012-10-03T17:59:24Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > And here’s an example from my current No. 1 TV show, _The Thick of It_: > > > [@](#): > > > > John Duggan: How was your your holiday? > > > > Nicola Murray: Well, you know. We wanted to go to Florida, but Malcolm suggested we went to Suffolk, so the kids were miserable, the weather was miserable, and Malcolm rang and shouted at me for looking miserable > > To me this is just wrong. The way it is stated, Malcolm was suggesting that Nicola _had already_ gone to Suffolk, when what she means is that Malcolm was instructing her to go to Suffolk instead of to Florida. > > So, she should have said “… Malcolm suggested we **go** to Suffolk …” I guess in British English it can mean either. It is one of those things that is usually clear from context. I have not seen this TV show, but it seems clear to me that Malcolm was recommending Suffolk. The alternative interpretation, that Malcolm was implying that they had gone to Suffolk, makes less sense. Besides, in that case she would more likely have said “Malcolm suggested that we had gone to Suffolk”. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/30 "2012-10-03T18:07:54Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Here’s a usage of the word “ever” that sounds very odd to me (I think it’s Irish, as the only place I’ve heard it was in songs written by Irish musicians): > > > [@](#): > > > > Would you ever go over to Czechoslovakia, marry my daughter for me? I’m not sure, but it sounds like a similar usage to “ever” that indicates emphasis, such as the answer to the question in the song, “Would I _ever_!” ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/31 "2012-10-03T18:30:26Z")
> [@Ximenean](#): > > I guess in British English it can mean either. It is one of those things that is usually clear from context. I have not seen this TV show, but it seems clear to me that Malcolm was recommending Suffolk. The alternative interpretation, that Malcolm was implying that they had gone to Suffolk, makes less sense. Well, yeah, it makes sense. It’s evident what meaning was intended once you have a second to parse it. But it still sounds like a grammatical error, like “Tomorrow, we are went to the beach.” Strangely enough, when you look it up at [Wikiquote](http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/The_Thick_of_It#Series_3.2C_episode_3), someone has transcribed it using the form I think _should_ be correct, but not the way it was actually spoken in the show: > [@](#): > > Well, we wanted to go to Florida but Malcolm “suggested” that we go to Suffolk. So the kids were miserable, the weather was miserable and Malcolm phoned to shout at me for looking miserable. ---
**Author:** ![Ximenean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/aca169/32.png) [@Ximenean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ximenean)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/32 "2012-10-03T19:01:13Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s evident what meaning was intended once you have a second to parse it. But it still sounds like a grammatical error. Other dialects’ grammar can sound strange. That is true. We have to put up with the likes of “diffferent than”, so it cuts both ways. The Wikiquote form is correct in British English too. In fact, the edit appears to have been made by someone in Scotland. It’s just that the other form is also correct in British English, but seemingly not in American. ---
**Author:** ![Szlater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/90ced4/32.png) [@Szlater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Szlater)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/33 "2012-10-03T19:10:18Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > So, she should have said “… Malcolm suggested we **go** to Suffolk …” Malcolm Tucker never just _suggests_ anything. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2012, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/34 "2012-10-03T19:12:37Z")
> [@Szlater](#): > > Malcolm Tucker never just _suggests_ anything. Well, yeah. That was expressed by the tone of voice used for the word “suggests.” ---
**Author:** ![gthull644](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/db5fbb/32.png) [@gthull644](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gthull644)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2012, 9:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/35 "2012-10-05T09:50:26Z")
Little Nemo jogged my memory, I think I heard Spock talk about alternate realities or an alternate universe in Star Trek. At the time I assumed it was a scientific expression. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/36 "2012-10-06T00:48:07Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > There’s a third usage, and I pronounce all three differently: > > 1. noun (a person acting as a substitute): stress on the 1st syllable, last vowel is a schwa; > 2. adjective (= alternative): stress on the 2nd syllable, last vowel is a schwa; > 3. verb (to take turns): stress on the 1st syllable, last syllable sounds like “8”. > > I think it’s funny that the OP thinks Americans’ pronunciation of “lever” sounds like “leather”. I pronounce the first two the way you pronounce the first one… ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/37 "2012-10-06T01:14:35Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Here’s a usage of the word “ever” that sounds very odd to me (I think it’s Irish, as the only place I’ve heard it was in songs written by Irish musicians): > > In American English, the first quote is a theoretical proposition only, and the second quote indicates that you do not, in fact, ever, ever come home in the night, it does not happen. However, in the context of the song, it’s clear that the speaker in the first quote is actually proposing a business deal and rather than being theoretical, it’s something he’d like to happen ASAP. The second quote in context seems to be a more wistful “if you would come home more often”. > > Am I reading the dialect properly? Is it just an Irish usage, or is this used elsewhere in the UK? I’m from Southern England and before you made me think about it I understood it perfectly well. Hope someone else can explain it all by the time I get to the end of the thread. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2012, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509/38 "2012-10-06T08:06:33Z")
> [@Maggie\_the\_Ocelot](#): > > Here’s a usage of the word “ever” that sounds very odd to me (I think it’s Irish, as the only place I’ve heard it was in songs written by Irish musicians): > > In American English, the first quote is a theoretical proposition only, and the second quote indicates that you do not, in fact, ever, ever come home in the night, it does not happen. However, in the context of the song, it’s clear that the speaker in the first quote is actually proposing a business deal and rather than being theoretical, it’s something he’d like to happen ASAP. The second quote in context seems to be a more wistful “if you would come home more often”. > > Am I reading the dialect properly? Is it just an Irish usage, or is this used elsewhere in the UK? I can confirm that this usage is typically Irish. HOWEVER, I am pretty sure I remember this usage in a line from Friends. Chandler has kissed one of Joey’s sisters (but doesn’t remember which sister) while drunk, and has subsequently been invited to Joey’s family home for dinner. His efforts to find out which sister are repeatedly thwarted by Joey’s mother. In his frustration, he says to Joey’s mother “Oh, would you ever, just…” Or maybe he didn’t say that, maybe he just said “Oh, would you just…” and I remember it differently because that’s how an Irish person would say it. Anyway, it has a number of different meanings: if an Irish person says “would you ever be quiet”, it means “would you just be quiet” and they are expressing impatience and annoyance; if they say “would you ever do me a favour?”, it just means “would you be kind enough to do me a favour?” Sinéad O’Connor’s line “If you ever came home in the night…” is a different usage; it means “if you were to come home (which may or may not happen), this is what would happen”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-english/636509.md?page=1)