# Alternate History Fiction and Wish-Fulfillment **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 23, 2015, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320 "2015-11-23T00:09:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/21 "2015-11-24T13:59:26Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > If anything, it seems to me most (published) alternate histories tend to be dystopian in nature to drive home the point (implicitly) that our world is the best of all possible worlds. I’ve noticed this too - I don’t recall reading an AH and thinking “Wow, I wish it really had happened that way!” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/22 "2015-11-24T14:04:09Z")
In an alternate history, you may have posted this in Cafe Society and received totally different responses… 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/23 "2015-11-24T17:36:58Z")
Every story requires a setting. Well what do you do when every setting has been done so much? You come up with a new one. Science fiction has done this. Ex. Post Apocalypse like Mad Max or post zombie epidemic. At least alt history to me, takes some real thinking and study. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/24 "2015-11-24T17:57:57Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Interesting point… The first counter-example to come to mind is “The Two Georges” by Harry Turtledove and Richard Dreyfus. At first blush, a patriotic American will think, “It’s terrible! The U.S. never gained independence.” But the idea that George (Washington) and George (III) made peace instead of war, and America is a loyal and happy part of the British Empire is not dystopian. Almost utopian. (Lovely book! Highest recommendation!) Contrarian POV: _The Two Georges_ annoyed the hell out of me – I really disliked the smug, self-righteous conservative “good guys”; and felt sympathetic toward the portrayedly crooked and thuggish dissident types struggling for an independent North America. Peoples’ mileages, of course, vary… > [@](#): > > For instance, a story where the South wins the American Civil War…and then immediately frees the slaves, creating a biracial democracy…would ring completely false. It would feel like a wish-fulfillment story, not a serious exploration of “what might have happened.” The above is in fact, not altogether dissimilar to what happens after the war is over, in Turtledove’s _Guns of the South_ (mentioned in the OP) – with Robert E. Lee as the wise and benign leader, converted to enlightened views on racial matters, who makes the transition possible. (Turtledove’s long “Southern Victory” series [not to be confused with the stand-alone _Guns of the South_] has the Confederacy winning the Civil war per a different scenario: what results here, is just short of a century of pretty dystopian and miserable conditions for nearly all of North America.) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/25 "2015-11-24T18:26:05Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > The ads are the best part I agree. > > And no, I think slavery would have ended due to automation and societal pressure. For example in the south there were many poor whites and part of that was there were few jobs open to them. > > Then there were issues with cotton production such as soil infertility and the boll weevil which wiped out cotton crops and once cotton was gone there was little need for slaves. Sure, the economic _need_ for slavery would have gone- and in fact it was on it way out. But the \*need \* to keep slaves and feel like you are superior to them still is there in the South. Besides, there are lost of braceros today, so the need for cheap ag labor is still there. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/26 "2015-11-24T18:27:14Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > The above is in fact, not altogether dissimilar to what happens after the war is over, in Turtledove’s _Guns of the South_ (mentioned in the OP) – with Robert E. Lee as the wise and benign leader, converted to enlightened views on racial matters, who makes the transition possible. (Turtledove’s long “Southern Victory” series [not to be confused with the stand-alone _Guns of the South_] has the Confederacy winning the Civil war per a different scenario: what results here, is just short of a century of pretty dystopian and miserable conditions for nearly all of North America.) The first never would have happened, the second is far more likely. ---
**Author:** ![stillownedbysetters](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/41988e/32.png) [@stillownedbysetters](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stillownedbysetters)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/27 "2015-11-24T19:10:36Z")
I enjoy reading a well-done alternate history piece. But the problem is, so many of them aren’t very well done. Alternate history is a lot like world building. If you don’t flesh out the background to the point where the alternate version makes sense, it’s merely a silly and sophomoric exercise and not worth my time. I think it’s easy to accept actual history as written in stone, as being the ‘only way it could have occurred’. A good alternate history piece can shake up those assumptions and alert us to how fluid ‘history’ actually was when it was being made. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/28 "2015-11-24T19:14:57Z")
You should give her a set of S.M. Stirling’s “Draka” novels. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/29 "2015-11-24T19:57:47Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How complicit is a writer in the fictional moral horror unleashed by his premises? Is Steven King ‘complicit’ in all the evil acts in his books? Of course not. That line of thinking is pure bullshit, not worthy of an intelligent adult. ---
**Author:** ![Sangahyando](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f14d63/32.png) [@Sangahyando](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sangahyando)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/30 "2015-11-24T21:04:06Z")
> [@Sangahyando](#): > > The above is in fact, not altogether dissimilar to what happens after the war is over, in Turtledove’s _Guns of the South_ (mentioned in the OP) – with Robert E. Lee as the wise and benign leader, converted to enlightened views on racial matters, who makes the transition possible. (Turtledove’s long “Southern Victory” series [not to be confused with the stand-alone _Guns of the South_] has the Confederacy winning the Civil war per a different scenario: what results here, is just short of a century of pretty dystopian and miserable conditions for nearly all of North America.) > [@DrDeth](#): > > The first never would have happened, the second is far more likely. I agree: I found _GotS_ a great story just as a story, and a most enjoyable read; but the way things in it work out in the end, is beyond preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/31 "2015-11-24T21:18:39Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > In an alternate history, you may have posted this in Cafe Society and received totally different responses… 😉 And peace in the Middle East would have followed swiftly! > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Every story requires a setting. > > Well what do you do when every setting has been done so much? You come up with a new one. Science fiction has done this. Ex. Post Apocalypse like Mad Max or post zombie epidemic. > > At least alt history to me, takes some real thinking and study. Agreed… It’s a fun excuse to study history, and then a fun way to exercise the imagination. The biggest risk is shallow “ceteris paribus” reasoning, where only one thing changes, but the follow-on consequences aren’t explored. (As if one wrote a book in which Henry VIII of England did not break with the Catholic Church – and then exploring how this affected the young United States of America. Whoa! That leaves out the vital influence of the Puritans on the U.S.; no English Civil War, no Puritans, etc. The writer needs to understand all of the effects of his one small change.) > [@stillownedbysetters](#): > > I enjoy reading a well-done alternate history piece. But the problem is, so many of them aren’t very well done. Alternate history is a lot like world building. If you don’t flesh out the background to the point where the alternate version makes sense, it’s merely a silly and sophomoric exercise and not worth my time. > > I think it’s easy to accept actual history as written in stone, as being the ‘only way it could have occurred’. A good alternate history piece can shake up those assumptions and alert us to how fluid ‘history’ actually was when it was being made. Agreed to both points. It isn’t a trivial form of art, because an honest AH writer has to be aware of a whole lot of “lesser players” who might have risen to prominence…and those who were actually prominent that might have sunken into obscurity. (If Bob Dole became President in 1996…what would that have meant for the talk radio industry?) It’s not just scenario-building: it’s world building. > [@muldoonthief](#): > > You should give her a set of S.M. Stirling’s “Draka” novels. Ye cats! I know of those, but have never read 'em. She’d most certainly plotz! ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/32 "2015-11-25T03:42:53Z")
Alternate history tends to be expressed in terms of “what if”, focusing on the apparent trigger event. What if some future sort of alien crystal that’s actually some sort of human thing only not went back in time to the same time to which another sort of not-quite-alien had, and they used humans to duke it out? (the Belisarius series) But the trigger for writing the story can be anything from wanting to explore the setting, to a bet on a Saturday night at the pub to someone asking “how come there is no Spanish Commonwealth?” Well, the immense majority of former colonial powers don’t have a Commonwealth either, but exploring “what would have been required for the 19 century Spanish decolonization to go smooth enough that it would leave a Commonwealth behind” lead me to things needing to be different back in the _15th_ century. The trigger question (about “now”) and the trigger event (mid-late 14xx) were half a milenium apart. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/33 "2015-11-25T04:14:13Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > . . . But the trigger for writing the story can be anything from wanting to explore the setting, to a bet on a Saturday night at the pub to someone asking “how come there is no Spanish Commonwealth?” Well, the immense majority of former colonial powers don’t have a Commonwealth either, but exploring “what would have been required for the 19 century Spanish decolonization to go smooth enough that it would leave a Commonwealth behind” lead me to things needing to be different back in the _15th_ century. The trigger question (about “now”) and the trigger event (mid-late 14xx) were half a milenium apart. A very pretty subject for exploration! Could Cortez and Pizarro have stuck to non-violent subjugation of the Aztecs and Incas – still coming into military-based dominance, but on the basis of demonstrations and skirmishes, and not destruction of the entire Imperial government in one hellish stroke? Could the Spanish have done something more akin to what the British did in India? If anybody’s written this, I don’t know of it! ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/34 "2015-11-25T04:49:25Z")
If anyone would like to read two short stories of alternate history, I submit the following stories by the author H. Beam Piper. Piper was a good historian, who could extrapolate believably what might have occured because of a different turning point. I like both of these. [https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18632/18632-h/18632-h.htm](https://www.gutenberg.org/files/18632/18632-h/18632-h.htm) Crossroads of Destiny [http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18807/18807-h/18807-h.htm](http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18807/18807-h/18807-h.htm) He Walked Around the Horses This second story is told in the form of a series of letters between government officials of different countries. The signature at the end of the last letter is most amusing, if one knows one’s history. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/35 "2015-11-25T05:11:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > A very pretty subject for exploration! Could Cortez and Pizarro have stuck to non-violent subjugation of the Aztecs and Incas – still coming into military-based dominance, but on the basis of demonstrations and skirmishes, and not destruction of the entire Imperial government in one hellish stroke? Could the Spanish have done something more akin to what the British did in India? > > If anybody’s written this, I don’t know of it! Actually, for me the big thing is higher up: different governors (more Palafoxes and less Pedrarias), kings that understood the Empire to look for was west and not north… I would have put the difference somewhere in the tangle of the Trastamara marriages and personalities. Change a few death dates there, leave this or that infante alive, you could end up with a Spain that never expelled Muslims and Jews; you could have one that never unified to the extent it actually did, or which did end up containing Portugal (irl Felipe II was king of all four Iberian kingdoms but the Portuguese ended up going on a separate line from the other three). The socioeconomical conditions Back Home which produced so many second sons bound for conquest… heck, to get rid of those you have to go back another 800 years. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2015, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/36 "2015-11-25T05:48:58Z")
**Nava** : A treasury of ideas. (I have a friend who writes “Catherine of Aragon” A.H. fan-fic. What a world of might-have-beens there!) **Baker** : Thank’ee for the pointers to the two H.Beam Piper stories! I downloaded 'em and will Kindle 'em! ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/37 "2015-11-29T06:25:59Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Agreed… It’s a fun excuse to study history, and then a fun way to exercise the imagination. The biggest risk is shallow “ceteris paribus” reasoning, where only one thing changes, but the follow-on consequences aren’t explored. Yea, you see that in alot of WW2 alt hist where the Nazis win. The scenario is like “the Nazis win because they fully develop jet fighters earlier”. The authors fail to explore the possible counters the allies might have had to jet fighters. Thing is any one action would just lead to another. So lets say the allies didnt win at DDay. That action alone would not have allowed the Nazis to win. The war might have gone longer but the allies would still have won. Same as say the south winning at Gettysburgh. They still would have lost the war. And even if the south had won the CW, eventually slavery would have ended and the country reunited. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/38 "2015-11-29T17:01:19Z")
Even Philip Dick knew there was no way that Japan and Germany could conquer the USA, which is why his ending was such a cheat. Could the Axis have “won”? Yes, but victory for them would have meant solidifying their early conquests and forcing their enemies to accept them as a fait accompli. For Japan, victory would have meant destroying the U.S. Navy, grabbing all the territory they wanted while they had a free hand, then hoping the U.S. would settle for an apology and some compensation. For Germany, victory would have meant getting Britain to accept German dominance of Europe in exchange for promises to leave the British Empire intact. The chances of either happening were slim, but the chances of Japan invading California or Germany invading England were far slimmer. In the same way, “victory” for the Confederacy would have meant only surviving. Their only hope was that the North would tire of war first, and tell the South “Good riddance.” Robert E. Lee couldn’t possibly have conquered the North. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/39 "2015-11-29T17:58:27Z")
Combining Harry Turtledove and “Nazis win WWII” stories, as far as I can tell, he wrote five short stories focusing on the premise: In the Presence of Mine Enemies Shetl Days The Phantom Tolbukhin The Last Article Ready for the Fatherland None of them are pro-Nazi. In the Presence of Mine Enemies and Shetl Days are pro-Jewish. The first is about a group of crypto-Jews in Berlin celebrating Purim, and the second is about a "historical reenactment"of a Polish Shetl where the actors have secretly converted to Judaism. The Phantom Tolbukhin is about a Russian partisan band in the conquered Soviet Union still fighting the Germans. The Last Article takes place in German occupied India after the British surrender, and, if anything, is about the limits of civil disobedience, as Gandhi finds out his tactics against the British didn’t work against the Germans. Ready for the Fatherland is about British agents in Fascist Croatia in a world where there’s a three way Cold War between the Soviet Union, Germany, and a US/British alliance, and its about how governments do morally dubious things in the name of pragmatism. But none of them count as pro-Nazi. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2015, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320/40 "2015-11-29T19:03:23Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > That’s why most of us are uncomfortable with things like “The Turner Diaries.” They aren’t merely explorations of hellish scenarios, but celebrations of them. Right – that book’s scenario is not just “what if there were a genocidal Race War”, but rather “wouldn’t it be _ **great** _ if there were a genocidal Race War”. And somewhere in between those may be where your friend may be having trouble drawing the line with the Alt-Histories. Depiction and exploration of _“Divergent History Scenario X, Involving Moral Consequence Y”_, is not the same thing as _advocacy_ thereof, but some people consider that certain ideas and concepts that are Absolute Evils may only be depicted in terms of unequivocal condemnation up front and center from the start and it’s unconscionable to even think of what if they prevailed. In the examples you describe (_Man in the High Castle, Guns of the South_) this would involve a vision of the world in which victories and defeats, rises and falls are intrinsecally bound with the \*moral \*side and that is the determinant. Then the key to the defeat of the Confederacy and Axis becomes not that they were prosaically outnumbered, outproduced and outgunned by the Union/Allies and thus conventionally defeated (which _ **is** _ what happened!), but that Virtue triumphed, and a what-if to the contrary is seen as a denial of the Good v. Evil scenario, as casting Nazism and slavery as mere policies over which there’s disagreement. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-fiction-and-wish-fulfillment/738320.md?page=3)