# Alternate History: If Germany won WWII. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 13, 2003, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358 "2003-09-13T06:15:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/21 "2003-09-15T01:05:03Z")
Hitler was addicted to cocaine & amphetemines. He had Parkinson’s. One way or another, he was not long for this world. After Hitler, the feeding frenzy begins. My money is on the Army. The German General Staff & Officers’ Corps was increasingly fed up with Nazism & the Nazis that led it. IMHO-------- A relative of the Kaiser would be sitting on the German Throne by 1955. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/22 "2003-09-15T01:23:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Hitler was addicted to cocaine & amphetemines. He had Parkinson’s. > > One way or another, he was not long for this world. Interesting, **Bosda**. I’d heard he used to take amphetamines, or maybe mescaline, before big speeches, but I’d never heard the other things you mention. Where did they come from? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Babbington](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Mr.Babbington](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Babbington)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/23 "2003-09-15T06:11:01Z")
Thank you everyone. Just my own nitpick: In Fatherland, it is actually Joseph Kennedy Sr. who is President. This makes the world an even scarier place because of Joseph Kennedy, Sr’s historical opinions of Nazism. And I never knew Hitler had Parkinson’s. One testicle, yes. Vegetarian, yes. But Parkinson’s? ---
**Author:** ![nicky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@nicky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nicky)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/24 "2003-09-15T08:18:18Z")
If the Nazis won WW2, it would be followed by WW3 agaisnt the USA. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/25 "2003-09-15T10:38:34Z")
BTW, does this mean that Edith Keeler gets to live? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/26 "2003-09-15T12:30:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Marley23 \* > \*\*Interesting, **Bosda**. I’d heard he used to take amphetamines, or maybe mescaline, before big speeches, but I’d never heard the other things you mention. Where did they come from? \*\* [War And Drugs.](http://www.monochrom.at/cracked/comments/warndrugs.htm) Scroll down a little. Plenty of other info on this topic in libraries & on the Web. ---
**Author:** ![Deptford](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Deptford](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deptford)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/27 "2003-09-15T13:41:46Z")
As mentioned above , the only realistic scenario for Nazi victory is a America that didn’t go to war with Germany. No second front , no bombing of German industry and perhaps most crucially no lend-lease. Russia recieved a \* lot\* of supplies from the Allies. How likely is this? Well actually its perfectly plausible. It was Hitler who decided to declare war on the USA which his treaties with Japan did not compel him to do (since it was a defensive alliance and Japan was the aggressor). If he hadn’t then it seems at least a arguable assumption that America would have chosen to concentrate on Japan and ignore the European war. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/28 "2003-09-15T15:05:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Our space program would have kicked into high gear after Germany launched their V4 satellite. This might have been tricky, since the US (and the Soviet) space programs were based on Nazi rocket terchology and were run by German scientists. > [@](#): > > They develop the Bomb in late '43 or early '44 and use it over Moscow. Not only was Germany a long way from developing the bomb, they had no way to deliver it. The first atomic bombs were huge (10,000 lbs) and the only aircraft capable of delivering one was the B-29. The Nazis didn’t a single design for a haevy bomber. [quote] …if the United States had really needed to use Ireland as a base, we’d have taken it. The logistics of this would have impossible. Fist of all, you would need a landing on the scale of D-Day. And those troops and all of their supplies would have to sail from Iceland, across a North Atlantic full of a strength U-boat fleet to land in Ireland (undoubtedly crawling with Luftwaffe). OTOH a German invasion of Britain would have been equally disastrous. If you want Germany to win the war, you would have to change so many things, so far back. If I can think of a way this could be done, I’ll let you know. ---
**Author:** ![B.Serum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/b.serum/32/14266_2.png) [@B.Serum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/B.Serum)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/29 "2003-09-15T17:08:43Z")
[Slight Hijack] The new issue of Captain America found Cap waking up from his decades-long cryogenic slumber to a U.S. occupied by Nazis. It looks like it could be an interesting story. [/Slight Hijack] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/30 "2003-09-15T17:15:01Z")
If Germany won the war, there would be no Israeli state, and thus no terrorism. Europe would be occupied mostly by blondes… ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/31 "2003-09-15T17:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by constantine \* > \*\*Phillip K. Dick has a GREAT book based on this premise called “The Man In The High Castle.” In his book, both the Japanese and the Germans occupy the U.S. \*\* Cute premise for overblown melodrama, but highly unlikely. Neither Germany nor Japan had the wherewithal to mount a trans-oceanic invasion in force, especially not in force against a country that had independent land-route sources of rubber, oil, food, wood, iron ore, coal, nitrates, and pretty much all the other raw materials of war at that time. Likewise, unlike Japan or Germany, if the Axis were to really have threatened the Americas, we could have counted on these sources being in the hands of generally friendly locals. Mexico, Central America, and South America were either supplying the Allies or were neutral-but-Allies-friendly. No, Mexico would not have turned traitor. Germany tried that trick back in WWI to no avail. A different Cold War would have been a more likely outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/32 "2003-09-15T17:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fish \* > **Based on the research of the author/saboteur (and the man is a college professor now) it characterizes the Nazi regime as less than an iron-clad dictatorship led unquestionably by Hitler. Instead, he writes that it was more a vicious pack of competing factions, each struggling with the other for ultimate power.** According to William L. Shirer, Hitler actively encouraged this. If you look at Nazi Germany’s internal organization, you will see that it was a monumentally bizarre overlay of non-compatible layers of bureaucracy, more importantly, Party divisions were not permitted to correspond to administrative divisions. A simple model of this would be to take and divide a square into three horizontal sections, I, II, and III. Lay another set of divisions upon this, vertically, A, B, and C. Okay, so over-office A is responsible for parts of territories I, II, and III, but it has to simultaneously fight against over-offices B and C, which are likewise responsible for parts of territories. Within his own inner circle, Hitler encouraged rivalries and back-biting–so long as it was never directed against him. He became the great peacemaker and solution finder for them. The factionalization was meant to make it more difficult to damage the Leader’s hold on power. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/33 "2003-09-15T17:32:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Susanann \* > \*\*we would never have let the Germans take over Chrysler Corporation. \*\* Dirty little secret that the jingoists want you to remain ignorant of: Chrysler took over Daimler. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/34 "2003-09-15T17:42:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Dirty little secret that the jingoists want you to remain ignorant of: Chrysler took over Daimler. \*\* Dude, chill. Switch to decaf. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/35 "2003-09-15T22:04:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tapioca Dextrin \* > \*\*Not only was Germany a long way from developing the bomb, they had no way to deliver it. The first atomic bombs were huge (10,000 lbs) and the only aircraft capable of delivering one was the B-29. The Nazis didn’t a single design for a haevy bomber. \*\* Didn’t even have a single _design_? What about the [Me-264](http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.html), a heavy bomber design that actually made it to the _prototype_ stage? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/36 "2003-09-15T23:15:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ranchoth \* > \*\*What about the [Me-264](http://www.luft46.com/prototyp/me264.html), a heavy bomber design that actually made it to the _prototype_ stage? \*\* You learn something every day here. And that’s a good thing. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Fredge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@Fredge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fredge)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/37 "2003-09-17T23:07:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Dirty little secret that the jingoists want you to remain ignorant of: Chrysler took over Daimler. \*\* Chrysler took over Daimler? What’s the story there; a quick web search has it the other way around on every link I saw. Obviously your jingoists (would that be American or German jingoists?) have kept me in the dark. ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/38 "2003-09-18T15:47:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*My favourite take on this subject, (apart from _The Man In The High Castle_, which has no equal, but is also about _so much more_,) is Stephen Fry’s wonderful [_Making History_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1569471509/qid=1063582742/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-7662820-2609627?v=glance&s=books), in which some well-intentioned folks use a very limited time-travel technology to ensure that Hitler is never born. > > What they fail to consider is that the Nazi party didn’t just spring up _ex nihilo_ with Hitler at its head – it was a product of the time and place. Without Adolph, an altogether more competent Führer leads the party to victory. There’s some very nice speculative work describing student life in Nazi-controlled America in the 1990’s. \*\* The NSDAP (Nazional Socialist Demokratik Arbei Partei) (my German is VERY rusty, was founded by Anton Drexler in I believe 1926 and Hitler became party member 555 around about the same time. Drexler died and Hitler took over as leader (Fuhrer) As you say it was indeed a product of time and place ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/39 "2003-09-18T17:33:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Larry Mudd \* > \*\*There’s some very nice speculative work describing student life in Nazi-controlled America in the 1990’s. \*\* To nit-pick… Fry’s excellent book “Making History” doesn’t show a Nazi controlled America. He portrays a world where there is a cold-war between Nazi controlled Europe and America, which is never invaded by Nazi forces… However, in an interesting twist, Fry suggests that the resulting America is very insular and far more right wing, to the point that there’s not that big a difference between it and the Nazi Europe it opposes. The protest movements etc of the 1960s simply never happen. This makes the book a whole lot more interesting than the simple Good/Bad confrontation it could have been. And is why it’s a very clever book without being a heavy read. It’s well thought-out popular fiction. Stephen Fry knows what he’s doing. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2003, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358/40 "2003-09-18T23:27:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spogga \* > \*\*The NSDAP (Nazional Socialist Demokratik Arbei Partei) (my German is VERY rusty, was founded by Anton Drexler in I believe 1926 and Hitler became party member 555 around about the same time. > Drexler died and Hitler took over as leader (Fuhrer) > As you say it was indeed a product of time and place \*\* Close. It’s _Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei_ – National Socialist German Workers’ Party [This site](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERnazi.htm) amplifies on its history a bit. It says Hitler was member #55, even earlier. Ironically, he’d been sent by the German army to spy on them, and liked what they were saying. DD [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-if-germany-won-wwii/201358.md?page=3)