# Alternate history: in which Native American cultures prevail? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** books-writing-myths\ **Created:** [April 14, 2023, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651 "2023-04-14T02:42:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/21 "2023-04-14T13:45:49Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Isn’t there some evidence that Christopher Columbus’s crew brought syphilis to Eurasia? That’s one theory as to its origin, but apparently it’s not certain. And while syphilis is bad, it’s also a good example of how the nature of a disease affects how it spreads. Since it’s a sexually transmitted disease, you kind of have to work at it to catch it, and it pretty much only spreads on a one-to-one basis (orgies notwithstanding 😃). Compare that to diseases spread by fleas, or respiratory diseases, which can spread much faster, on a one-to-many scale, and with little effort needed to be exposed, and great effort needed to avoid exposure. > **[History of syphilis](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_syphilis)** > > The first recorded outbreak of syphilis in Europe occurred in 1494/1495 in Naples, Italy, during a French invasion. Because it was spread by returning French troops, the disease was known as "French disease", and it was not until 1530 that the term "syphilis" was first applied by the Italian physician and poet Girolamo Fracastoro. The causative organism, Treponema pallidum, was first identified by Fritz Schaudinn and Erich Hoffmann in 1905 at the Charité Clinic in Berlin. The first ef Many well... ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/22 "2023-04-14T14:22:15Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Endemic diseases generally require a sustained population density to form. Isolated bands simply don’t have the numbers for such diseases to arise in them often enough to matter. Once in 10,000 or 100,000 years maybe? Do we know enough about American populations 500 years before Columbus ran into land before reaching Ohio to evaluate how a disease would have spread? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/23 "2023-04-14T14:33:24Z")
IANA expert on these matters. Certainly the Incas, Mayans, and Aztecs had some urban centers in addition to far-flung agricultural hinterlands. As did the mound builders in the central USA: > **[Cahokia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cahokia)** > > The Cahokia Mounds State Historic Site /kəˈhoʊkiə/ (11 MS 2) is the site of a pre-Columbian Native American city (which existed c. 1050–1350 CE) directly across the Mississippi River from modern St. Louis, Missouri. This historic park lies in south-western Illinois between East St. Louis and Collinsville. The park covers 2,200 acres (890 ha), or about 3.5 square miles (9 km2), and contains about 80 manmade mounds, but the ancient city was much larger. At its apex around 1100 CE, the city Cahok... But AFAIK, they were the exception that proves the rule. The Native Americans in the frozen north certainly never had large settlements, and I suspect, but do not know, that the natives common along the eastern seaboard from, say, modern Maine to Florida also did not have large settlements. Semi-nomadism and smallish bands seems to have been the more common approach, not fixed pastoralism much less urbanization on any scale. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/24 "2023-04-14T14:52:08Z")
# The origin and antiquity of syphilis revisited: An Appraisal of Old World pre-Columbian evidence for treponemal infection [Kristin N. Harper](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/authored-by/ContribAuthorRaw/Harper/Kristin+N.), [Molly K. Zuckerman](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/authored-by/ContribAuthorRaw/Zuckerman/Molly+K.), [Megan L. Harper](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/authored-by/ContribAuthorRaw/Harper/Megan+L.), [John D. Kingston](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/authored-by/ContribAuthorRaw/Kingston/John+D.), [George J. Armelagos](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/authored-by/ContribAuthorRaw/Armelagos/George+J.) First published: 19 November 2011 [https://doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.21613](https://doi.org/10.1002/ajpa.21613) is what I was thinking of, just FYI. It’s probably been superseded by now. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/25 "2023-04-14T15:08:08Z")
Robert Silverberg wrote The Gate of Worlds, an adventure set in a world where the black death was far worse, the Ottoman empire conquered most of Europe, and the Aztecs were able to repel incursions and develop technology. It was entertaining enough. I won’t comment on its plausibility. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/26 "2023-04-14T15:09:48Z")
Maybe a bit later than you’re looking for but _Apacheria_, by Jake Page, starts in the 1880s and has an Apache-led tribal coalition coming to terms with the US government and forming their own nation. I think events in the book come at least up to the 1930s. Less what you’re looking for I suspect is the _Hesperian Trilogy_ by Alan Smale. The Western Roman Empire never fell and in the 13th C it invades North America. It comes up against the Cahokian culture and, at least in v1 (_Clash of Eagles_), comes off a poor second. I haven’t read the other two, but I liked the extrapolation of continent-wide trails and trade routes & communication networks, etc. in the first book. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/27 "2023-04-14T15:14:22Z")
> [@slicedalone](#): > > Has anyone written one? In a slightly different format, Coyote and Crow is a tabletop roleplaying game that posits a climate catastrophe that sufficiently disrupted European culture that colonization never happened. Besides its format, the other thing that sets it apart from these other examples is that it’s written by Native Americans. > **[Coyote and Crow: An RPG Game Natives Can Get Behind](https://www.powwows.com/coyote-and-crow-an-rpg-game-natives-can-get-behind/)** > > Imagine if Europeans never invaded North America and colonization never happened. With the new Role Playing Game (RPG), Coyote and Crow, players get a chance to step back into the past and live a First ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/28 "2023-04-14T15:19:55Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I think it’s recently been conclusively disproved. I’ll try to dig up the cite later today. As I read it, your cite supports new world origin. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/29 "2023-04-14T15:29:46Z")
An interesting question sorta parallel to the OP is whether what we consider “Native American culture” could have invented technology or could have survived fully adopting it. ISTM that much of cultural Native America today exists in a state kind of like the Amish, rejecting large parts of modern worldwide culture & tech as foreign and _outre_ because _reasons_. The analogy is far from perfect of course. But if we pretend the Europeans had not been disease ridden beastly marauders and instead had come in health and respectful peace for all mankind, a la _Star Trek_’s Prime Directive, and stopped their westward progress a few miles inland, what would the term “Native American civilization” or “Native American culture” even mean here in 2023? What _could_ it mean? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/30 "2023-04-14T15:34:19Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > ISTM that much of cultural Native America today exists in a state kind of like the Amish, rejecting large parts of modern worldwide culture & tech as foreign and _outre_ because _reasons_. I don’t think that’s remotely true. Do you have anything specific you base that idea on? Like, look at some tribal websites–do you see anything there that looks technophobic? I think that many folks have unexamined stereotypes about modern Native Americans that don’t hold up to close scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/31 "2023-04-14T15:52:59Z")
That’s pretty racist. Evidence shows that Native North Americans had a fairly sophisticated culture before the plagues and genocides. Modern Native people treasure their cultural heritage and rituals, but they use computers, drive cars, get law degrees, and fully participate in 21st century life. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/32 "2023-04-14T15:53:29Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I don’t think that’s remotely true. Do you have anything specific you base that idea on? Like, look at some tribal websites–do you see anything there that looks technophobic? I’ll admit that most of my knowledge of modern Native American culture comes from TV shows like _Reservation Dogs_ and _Rutherford Falls_, but it seems like any lack of advancement comes from being shoved into dirt-poor reservations, not desire for a simpler lifestyle. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/33 "2023-04-14T15:58:38Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > That’s pretty racist. Evidence shows that Native North Americans had a fairly sophisticated culture before the plagues and genocides. Modern Native people treasure their cultural heritage and rituals, but they use computers, drive cars, get law degrees, and fully participate in 21st century life. I once had to explain to someone that Native Americans were still around today. I was floored. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/34 "2023-04-14T16:11:44Z")
Also, there were a lot of different cultures across the Americas. It’s not as if there was one homogenous culture. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/35 "2023-04-14T16:14:54Z")
Hmm… perhaps that wasn’t the one. Or I misread it: I read a few articles when I was preparing a few minutes of a lecture on the name of the disease (which is kind of fascinating). ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/36 "2023-04-14T16:16:03Z")
You’re right, I should have said “had sophisticated cultures.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/37 "2023-04-14T16:18:52Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > I could see a story being written of triumphant American Native tall ships sailing into a port in Europe, and returning with all sorts of exotic trade goods, and then accidentally wiping out their own civilization because they also brought back all those diseases as well. I actually wrote such a story, more for my kid than anything. Let me see if I can find it. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/38 "2023-04-14T17:14:47Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I once had to explain to someone that Native Americans were still around today. I was floored. Heh. I consider that explanation part of my sacred duty as a teacher, so that adults don’t have that misperception. When I was a third-grader, my teacher invited a Cherokee guy to come talk to our class. When we sat in a circle to hear him, his first question was, “I’m an American Indian. How do you think I got to your school?” We had all the answer: “You rode a buffalo!” “Horseback!” “You walked!” After calling on a few of us, he said, “Guys. I drove my Honda. I’m a Native American, but that doesn’t mean I don’t drive a car.” We were completely goddamned flabbergasted. Today, I tell that story to my students–and they _still_ guess that he rode a horse to our school. I go into classes where they’re studying the 19th-century Nez Perce, and they _still_ think that Native Americans were part of our history, not still around today. When I pull up the Nez Perce Tribal website and show them the calendar of events (“2:30: Carseat fitting at Fire Department 3:30: Weaver Wednesday class” or the like), they’re _still_ completely goddamned flabbergasted. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/39 "2023-04-14T17:22:49Z")
Huh. A couple of my high school teachers were part native American. They… we’re just like all the other teachers. Of course, they were culturally fully mainstream Americans, and lived in the burbs, and taught at a mostly-white school for ordinary teacher wages. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2023, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651/40 "2023-04-14T17:27:14Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > I once had to explain to someone that Native Americans were still around today. I was floored. You couldn’t just point to the nearest casino? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-in-which-native-american-cultures-prevail/982651.md?page=3)