# Alternate-history "points of divergence" that haven't been done yet
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Created:** [February 15, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270 "2005-02-15T22:34:31Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/21 "2005-02-16T07:51:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#):
>
> It would make a good story, but why would it make any difference in the outcome of the Civil War?
None whatsoever. But alternate history doesn’t always have to be sweeping and (inter)national in scope, does it? The idea of a 19th century trial with the Confederacy prosecuting Harriet Tubman in the midst of the early Civil War intrigues me. You’d have the various slaveowners trying to claim Harriet as their property and likely overturned by the Confederacy who’d want her tried and hanged for treason. All the abolitionist groups and proto-sufferagettes would clamor for her release and providing monies for her defense, which might include a 19th century “dream team” of abolitionist lawyers. Then there’s the involvement of the Confederate Attorney General(s), the coverage by the Negro press under Frederick Douglass. International interest from France, England, Haiti and Spain. Finally, the trial itself, a fearsome and unrepentant Harriet takes the stand and gives an rustic yet eloquent defense of her actions. But she and is convicted and hanged. As a further insult, the Confederacy refuses to surrender her body to the abolitionists and buries her in a gravesite with murderers, cowards and thieves. Her martyrdom would galvanize the abolitionist movement like nothing since the murder of Elijah Lovejoy. Partly in her memory, Reconstruction could conceivably be different: more rights and aid to freed blacks, more aid to the region from foreign countries, a much stronger and longer commitment from the north, more black rule in local government. Probably still not enough to stop the growth of the ku Klux Klan, black disenfranchisement and Jim Crow from happening but enough for a political potboiler.
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### Author:  [@Paladud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paladud)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/22 "2005-02-16T09:09:18Z")
Charles Martel gets his ass handed at Tours.
Thirteen or fourteen centuries later, Christian fanatics crash passenger airliners into the Kaaba. Hilarity ensues.
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### Author:  [@Kaspar\_Hauser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaspar_Hauser)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/23 "2005-02-16T15:59:09Z")
For a more recent example, what about if Hinckley’s bullet had killed Reagan?
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### Author:  [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/24 "2005-02-16T17:02:29Z")
> [@Paladud](#):
>
> Charles Martel gets his ass handed at Tours.
I think a fall of Constantinople in one of the two attacks is a more plausible divergence point – that would open up a much more direct route into Europe proper.
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### Author:  [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/25 "2005-02-16T17:10:51Z")
Joseph Gallieni dies prior to WWI. He was probably the most influential unknown person in history.
It was Gallieni who managed the defense of Paris in WWI, who discovered the break in the German lines bearing down on the city, who urged Joffre to attack, and who organized the taxicabs of Paris to ferry troops to the spot. Result: Germans lose at the Marne, WWI drags on for years, and the Treaty of Versailles leads to Hitler. No Gallieni, and WWI ends by 1915 with a German victory and Hitler doesn’t come to power.
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### Author:  [@dotchan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dotchan)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/26 "2005-02-16T17:42:14Z")
I don’t read AH, so I don’t know if these haven’t been done before:
\*If Moses didn’t exist, or at the Israelites never made it out of Egypt
\*Rehobam listens to his more experienced advisors and lightens the burden on his people, Israel stays in one piece
\*After meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus, Saul comes to the conclusion that it’s a test sent from the devil (and therefore Christianity dies, or very nearly so, before the fall of Jerusalem)
\*The Crusades succeed
\*Having learned their lessons in the American revolution, England colonizes India, Africa, etc. in a non-oppressive fashion
\*Hitler is accepted at the art school (will it prevent WWII, or just make room for another wacky disenchanted psycho?)
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### Author:  [@ivylass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivylass)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/27 "2005-02-16T17:47:06Z")
There was a Dean Koontz novel where German soldiers during WWII were traveling forward in time to see what happened, and then traveling back to make changes.
In the book, a good Nazi comes forward and gets involved with our heroine. But the nice plot twist was the Nazis were able to convince Churchill and Roosevelt of the threat of communism, so after Germany surrendered, the Allies pushed on and defeated Stalin. So in our world, there was never any communism and Russia is a peaceful democracy like the US
A more current one…what would have happened if Sept 11, 2001, was just another day? Would we still be debating Pres. Bush’s win and what happened to Chandra Levy?
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/28 "2005-02-16T18:06:42Z")
> [@dotchan](#):
>
> \*If Moses didn’t exist, or at the Israelites never made it out of Egypt?
That was the POD in Robert Silverberg’s _Roma Eterna_ series of short stories: The Exodus failed, therefore no Judaism as an influential religion in the world, therefore no Christianity, therefore the Roman Empire never fell. I don’t buy it – that is, I don’t see how Christianity can be blamed for the fall of Rome, seeing as how the Eastern (Byzantine) Empire hung on for another thousand years as a Christian state.
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### Author:  [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/29 "2005-02-16T18:55:41Z")
> [@dotchan](#):
>
> \*Hitler is accepted at the art school (will it prevent WWII, or just make room for another wacky disenchanted psycho?)
Back in the 70’s, Norman Spinrad wrote a parody of swords and sorcery fiction called _The Iron Dream: Lords of the Swastika_. The premise of the book, discussed in the introduction and afterword by an imaginary professor of literature in an alternate universe, is that Hitler, instead of getting involved in politics, emigrates to the United States and becomes an illustrator for pulp science fiction magazines and not long afterwards shifts from illustrating to writing. \*Lords of the Swastika \* is supposed to be a swords and sorcery novel written by Hitler. It isn’t exactly alternate history, but it’s an amusing if somewhat perverse spoof.
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### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/30 "2005-02-16T19:19:51Z")
I wonder how things might have been different if either of the respective assassination attempts on Theodore Roosevelt and Franklin Roosevelt had been successful.
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### Author:  [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/31 "2005-02-16T20:19:49Z")
From more recent history:
Ken Starr’s witchhunt of the Clinton Presidency runs out of steam due to a growing backlash from the American public, who question the “impartiality” of an investigation into a real-estate deal is morphing into the President’s sex life. The Republican party is then forced to ratchet down their anti-Clinton rhetoric, and the last three years of Clinton’s second term pass without incident.
In August of 1998, a covert anti-terrorism operation authorized by Bill Clinton succeeds in killing Osama Bin Laden. The _New York Times_ buries the news article on page 24 due to lack of interest. The terrorist group _al Qaeda_ splinters from the lack of leadership.
September 11, 2001 is an ordinary, uneventful day. President Al Gore spends it in a day-long conference with his economic advisors on how to minimize the impact of the current post-dot-com stock burst.
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### Author:  [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/32 "2005-02-16T20:38:36Z")
> [@rjung](#):
>
> From more recent history:
> September 11, 2001 is an ordinary, uneventful day. President Al Gore spends it in a day-long conference with his economic advisors on how to minimize the impact of the current post-dot-com stock burst.
Or, here’s another one: What if Flight 93 actually makes it to Washington and hits the Capitol building rather than going down in the Pennsylvania woods? How does a decimated Congress manage to rebuild itself without a way to hold elections before 2002?
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### Author:  [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/33 "2005-02-16T20:58:53Z")
How about Germany wins WW **1**? Either (a.) the Germans manage to move fast enough at the start to avoid running into entrenched positions, or (b.) their first use of gas is better planned, and catches the Allies completely off guard. Either way, we see German troops march to the Atlantic. France is forced to sign a truce. With no effective way to land troops on the Continent, Britain tries a naval attack. The Second Battle of Jutland is also a draw: after heavy fighting, both sides loose about half their fleet, resulting in the same stalemate but with half as many ships. By 1918 the Russian war effort collapses. Germany and Britain remain technically at war into the 1920s, but eventually the British public balks at continuing a fruitless state of hostility.
What’s really interesting is the postwar scenerio: In this history, a defeated humilated _France_ might go fascist. Germany is victorious, but the Kaiser’s regime comes under pressure from liberal and communist elements. Germany helps to suppress the Bolsheviks and Russia becomes a weak, marginal republic. Britain takes a “Cold War” stance towards Germany, to the point that Britain and the US nearly come to blows over Britain’s interference with neutral trade. The US and Britain engage in a huge battleship arms race. The international scene is much more multipolar, with everyone suspicious of everyone else, and treaties and alliances constantly breaking and reforming.
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### Author:  [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/34 "2005-02-16T21:04:48Z")
> [@Lumpy](#):
>
> What’s really interesting is the postwar scenerio: In this history, a defeated humilated _France_ might go fascist. Germany is victorious, but the Kaiser’s regime comes under pressure from liberal and communist elements. Germany helps to suppress the Bolsheviks and Russia becomes a weak, marginal republic. Britain takes a “Cold War” stance towards Germany, to the point that Britain and the US nearly come to blows over Britain’s interference with neutral trade. The US and Britain engage in a huge battleship arms race. The international scene is much more multipolar, with everyone suspicious of everyone else, and treaties and alliances constantly breaking and reforming.
Stop. You’re making me moist.
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### Author:  [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/35 "2005-02-16T21:22:03Z")
Al Gore wins Florida and is elected President. Unlike G.W.Bush, he doesn’t spend all of Aug., 2001 on vacation but remains in Washington working instead, and chooses to take seriously the reports of the growing threat of Al Qaida. He authorizes an investigation into the reports describing the possibility of terrorists using airplanes against civilian targets, and also the reports suggesting and Al Qaida plot against the mainland U.S. There are numerous arrests, and Sept. 11, 2001 passes without incident. The U.N. containment of Saddam Hussein continues to work, after a little more sabre-rattling, and his regime remains a non-issue, being nothing close to resembling a true threat to his neighbors much less the U.S. itself.
With no Iraq War, no “War” on Terror, and with no ill-advised tax cuts for the wealthy, the U.S. rebounds easily from the short-lived recession and is well on the way to making the forecast surplus a reality, securing the solvency of social security and medicaid, and taking seriously the possibility of expanding healthcase benefits to more of the millions of Americans who presently cannot afford it.
Nah, that wouldn’t make a good story, now, would it?
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### Author:  [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/36 "2005-02-16T21:24:18Z")
Gavrilo Princip missed.
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### Author:  [@emekthian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emekthian)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/37 "2005-02-16T22:10:07Z")
Truman decides against nuking Japan, and the U.S. army does a land invasion of Japan in late 1945.
The Greeks lose the battle of Marathon, leading to the Persians becoming a world power, expanding westward, and rivaling Rome.
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### Author:  [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/38 "2005-02-16T22:28:53Z")
You need to sell your story to someone, **Lumpy**. That’s the best idea for a story I’ve read in a while.
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### Author:  [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/39 "2005-02-16T22:53:01Z")
Yesterday was the anniversary of the sinking of the USS _Maine_ in Havana harbor, arguably the single event that precipitated the [Spanish-American War](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_American_War). This is what cemented the US as a world power, with interests reaching halfway around the world to Guam and the Philippines. What if the _Maine_ had never been sunk? President McKinley could have held out against the warhawks and the war would never have happened. America’s isolationist tendencies may have been reinforced, so it would not desire to intervene in later conflicts such as the Great War.
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### Author:  [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)
#### Post date: [February 16, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/40 "2005-02-16T22:58:00Z")
A very simple divergence: Philo Farnsworth, more satisfied with his manager, retains his position and funding, comes out with television a year or two earlier, doesn’t get slogged down in lawsuits with Sarnoff/Zworykin, and thus television hits the market and becomes a cultural international phenomena in the mid-1930s rather than 15 years later. Think of how this may have effected WW2, or America’s realization that FDR can’t stand or walk without considerable help which causes his defeat.
If Henry VIII had succeeded in his divorce (perhaps by diplomacy convincing Charles V “It’s nothing against your Aunt Catherine”) and England had remained a Catholic country, it may have been interesting.
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