# Alternate-history "points of divergence" that haven't been done yet **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 15, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270 "2005-02-15T22:34:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/41 "2005-02-16T22:58:21Z")
> [@Lumpy](#): > > How about Germany wins WW **1**? Either (a.) the Germans manage to move fast enough at the start to avoid running into entrenched positions, or (b.) their first use of gas is better planned, and catches the Allies completely off guard. Either way, we see German troops march to the Atlantic. France is forced to sign a truce. With no effective way to land troops on the Continent, Britain tries a naval attack. The Second Battle of Jutland is also a draw: after heavy fighting, both sides loose about half their fleet, resulting in the same stalemate but with half as many ships. By 1918 the Russian war effort collapses. Germany and Britain remain technically at war into the 1920s, but eventually the British public balks at continuing a fruitless state of hostility. > > What’s really interesting is the postwar scenerio: In this history, a defeated humilated _France_ might go fascist. Germany is victorious, but the Kaiser’s regime comes under pressure from liberal and communist elements. Germany helps to suppress the Bolsheviks and Russia becomes a weak, marginal republic. Britain takes a “Cold War” stance towards Germany, to the point that Britain and the US nearly come to blows over Britain’s interference with neutral trade. The US and Britain engage in a huge battleship arms race. The international scene is much more multipolar, with everyone suspicious of everyone else, and treaties and alliances constantly breaking and reforming. Actually, that’s very similar to the international situation in Harry Turtledove’s Southern Victory series of novels (in which, as you may have guessed, the POD is the South winning the Civil War). See [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry\_Turtledove#The\_Southern\_Victory\_Series](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Turtledove#The_Southern_Victory_Series). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/42 "2005-02-16T23:06:19Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > A very simple divergence: Philo Farnsworth, more satisfied with his manager, retains his position and funding, comes out with television a year or two earlier, doesn’t get slogged down in lawsuits with Sarnoff/Zworykin, and thus television hits the market and becomes a cultural international phenomena in the mid-1930s rather than 15 years later. Think of how this may have effected WW2, or America’s realization that FDR can’t stand or walk without considerable help which causes his defeat. Howard Waldrop ([http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard\_Waldrop](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Howard_Waldrop)) wrote a short story, “Hoover’s Men,” in which Herbert Hoover, after leaving the presidency, becomes head of the FCC and imposes a vigorous regulatory system that facilitates television (color, yet) hitting the mass market in the late 1930s. But he doesn’t really explore the effects on politics or international relations. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/43 "2005-02-16T23:18:45Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > As my interests lie in black history there are a few POD I’d like to explore Heck, there’s one I’ve been meaning to write. The Trent Affair was an incident when on November 8, 1861, a U.S. warship boarded a British mail ship and arrested two Confederate agents travelling to Europe. There was a big kerfluffle and a lot of posturing from the Americans and British, with the latter’s Parliament drafting a very nasty letter in response but it fortunately being toned down by Prince Albert. The Americans, having briefly hailed the captain of the warship as a hero, were quick to sober up and back down, not wishing war on two fronts. Albert died of typohid on December 13. Divergence point: Albert dies a mere six weeks earlier. Result: The letter is not rewritten. War hawks in Parliament press the issue and a naval war ensues. 13,000 battle-hardened British troops already stationed in Canada threaten U.S. territory, which despite having a much larger population, is not sufficiently organized to defend itself from North _and_ South. The British threaten to burn Washington (repeating their actions in the War of 1812) and it looks like they may succeed. Lincoln is forced to make concessions in order to keep Northeastern industrial centers intact (which he knows will be critical if the Confederacy is to be defeated), yielding sparsely-populated western territories to British North America (i.e. proto-Canada). Lincoln’s critics, of which there are many, jump on this. Horace Greeley sniffs that Lincoln has yielded one Washington (the territory) to save another (the District). The civil war continues, with Robert E. Lee scoring early victories. George McClelland, former commander of the Union Army but suspended by Lincoln in 1862, runs agasint him in the 1864 election and wins. Though he tries to bring the Civil War to an end, it’s beyond his abilities and the seceeded states remain Confederated. Meantime, the British quickly realize that they have no chance of holding onto their gains in Western North America. The Americans are multiplying and expenading westward too rapidly. Unable to encourage sufficient numbers of colonists from Britain, they instead start a systematic campaign in support of the underground railroad, rapidly draining the slave population from the Confederacy, causing its complete collapse and reassimilation into the United States circa 1885. The British apply the same colonial practices to the escaped blacks as they have to other “coloured” Empire populations, as in India. There is a great deal of overt racism and indoctrination. The blacks, with white educators, are sent West to populate and ultimately defend that region should the U.S. ever decide to retake it. They build the transcontental railroad as they go. The Confederation of Canada is briefly delayed, to 1885. In the alternate “present”, Canada is on the verge of celebrating its 1985 centennial. The border between the Unitied States and Canada is one of the longest in the world, but neither side would dream of leaving it undefended. Alliances in the two World Wars have softened relations a bit, but in recent years there has been a great deal of tension surrounding another international incident. An American draft-dodger, seeking refuge in Canada to avoid serving in Vietnam, was gunned down by Canadian border guards as he tried to swin across the Columbia River (since 1862, the official border, though there has been occasional “Forty-Four Forty or Fight!” rhetoric). Racial tensions aggravate the situation, since the guards are black (as is most of the Western Canadian population) and the would-be dodger was white. Western Canada is highly militarized (by “real” Canadian standards) and advanced Avro Arrows routinely make “sovereignty flights”, sometimes playing chicken with American F-14s and the occasional Alaskan MiG. Trouble is, not all of the posturing is directed against the Americans or Soviets. The Easterners in Toronto and Montreal seem less and less responsive to Western Canada’s needs, and some arguments can be made that a (typically Canadian) polite form of Apartheid has been forming for the last hundred years. Is it time for a Canadian civil war, with the main prize being the Alberta oil fields? Canadian nuclear silos are manned but few can guess at their targets and the clock is ticking. I’ll get back to you when I have a first draft. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/44 "2005-02-16T23:30:03Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Heck, there’s one I’ve been meaning to write. The Trent Affair was an incident when on November 8, 1861, a U.S. warship boarded a British mail ship and arrested two Confederate agents travelling to Europe. There was a big kerfluffle and a lot of posturing from the Americans and British, with the latter’s Parliament drafting a very nasty letter in response but it fortunately being toned down by Prince Albert. The Americans, having briefly hailed the captain of the warship as a hero, were quick to sober up and back down, not wishing war on two fronts. Albert died of typohid on December 13. > > Divergence point: Albert dies a mere six weeks earlier. > > Result: The letter is not rewritten. War hawks in Parliament press the issue and a naval war ensues. . . . See Harry Harrison’s _The Stars and Stripes Forever._ But he took that POD in a different direction than you’re proposing. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/45 "2005-02-16T23:32:47Z")
> [@Askia](#): > > What if Dr. George Washington Carver had developed and patented bakelite plastic at the turn of the 20th century for the Tuskegee Institute? Interesting idea but the doctor was too devoted to the environment for such a diversion. Some of today’s biodegradable plastics can be traced back to his work with soybeans. A better question would be: what if Dr. George Washington Carver had a computer and the internet at his disposal? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2005, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/46 "2005-02-16T23:49:40Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > See Harry Harrison’s _The Stars and Stripes Forever._ Blast his oily hide! Honestly, I had the idea before Harrison’s book was published. I swear. That’ll teach me to procrastinate. ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/47 "2005-02-17T01:28:16Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Blast his oily hide! > > Honestly, I had the idea before Harrison’s book was published. I swear. > That’ll teach me to procrastinate. I think you should still do it, Since Harrison’s is very much “Rah, rah USA !” I think it would be interesting to see a **Canadian** perspective on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Ephemera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8baadc/32.png) [@Ephemera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ephemera)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/48 "2005-02-17T01:38:16Z")
Isn’t \*all \*of Harrison’s work “Rah, rah, USA!”? All that I’ve read has and it turns me off. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/49 "2005-02-17T01:43:23Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Al Gore wins Florida and is elected President. Unlike G.W.Bush, he doesn’t spend all of Aug., 2001 on vacation but remains in Washington working instead, and chooses to take seriously the reports of the growing threat of Al Qaida. He authorizes an investigation into the reports describing the possibility of terrorists using airplanes against civilian targets, and also the reports suggesting and Al Qaida plot against the mainland U.S. There are numerous arrests, and Sept. 11, 2001 passes without incident. The U.N. containment of Saddam Hussein continues to work, after a little more sabre-rattling, and his regime remains a non-issue, being nothing close to resembling a true threat to his neighbors much less the U.S. itself. > > With no Iraq War, no “War” on Terror, and with no ill-advised tax cuts for the wealthy, the U.S. rebounds easily from the short-lived recession and is well on the way to making the forecast surplus a reality, securing the solvency of social security and medicaid, and taking seriously the possibility of expanding healthcase benefits to more of the millions of Americans who presently cannot afford it. > > Nah, that wouldn’t make a good story, now, would it? September 11th, 2001 might have passed without incident, but the nation is stunned by the anthrax attack in the Washington DC Metro the next march. Gore endures scathing criticism for ignoring the clear hints about fundamentalist Islamic development of bioweapons and wasting his efforts persecuting Middle Eastern men who just wanted to learn to fly. Critics paint rosy scenarios showing that Bush would have at least retaliated against the perpetrators, and a few other folks who happen to be in the way… ---
**Author:** ![detop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bcef8e/32.png) [@detop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/detop)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/50 "2005-02-17T02:56:33Z")
> [@Aesiron](#): > > Isn’t \*all \*of Harrison’s work “Rah, rah, USA!”? All that I’ve read has and it turns me off. Not really, read _Make Room, Make Room_ (the book that gave us _Soylent Green_) or _Bill the Galactic Hero_ among others. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/51 "2005-02-17T02:57:21Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > Al Gore wins Florida and is elected President… Even if you were being serious, it’s a dull, predictable story. Now, if Gore was elected President and in the Pentagon on Sept. 11, getting severely injured in the attack and leaving the response to Vice-President Lieberman… _that_ has potential. You’d have to wait a while to get the sufficient historical perspective, ten years at least. ---
**Author:** ![Morbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morbo/32/389_2.png) [@Morbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morbo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/52 "2005-02-17T03:07:34Z")
Hernán Cortés happened to arrive the year before, thereby not coinciding his arrival with the expected return of Quetzalcoatl in the year of Hun Hunahpu’s return on the Aztec cyclical calendar. As a result Moctezuma thought him to be simply a marauder and was able to get the Aztecs to band together with the Tlaxcaltecas in an effort to slay their common conquering enemy. The extra 2,000 warriors from Tlaxcala therefore never joined up with Cortés, and indeed the 30,000 inhabitants from Tlaxcala were never slain. The extra numbers resulted in the Aztecs winning the battle. (A stretch, I realize, although even with the horses and modern weaponry he would only have had 500 men w/o the army from Tlaxcala). Cortés, realizing his certain death had he returned to Spain defeated, agreed to remain as advisor to Moctezuma. As a result, everything that would have occurred after their surrender never happened - since his men are all dead, a smallpox outbreak does not break the Aztec’s spirits, Tenochtitlán does not get destroyed by Cortès’s soldiers, Cuauhtémoc does not surrender. Cortès, upon hearing that Velasquez has sent more troops for his arrest for insubordination, prepares the armies of both people (remember the Tlaxcaltecas are now allied with the Aztecas) for his own survival. Spain gives up, the New World discovery is postponed, Mexico conquers the new lands of North Mexico and South Mexico, the balance of power has shifted for all time, penis ensues. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Scrivener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@The\_Scrivener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Scrivener)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/53 "2005-02-17T03:12:25Z")
> [@emekthian](#): > > Truman decides against nuking Japan, and the U.S. army does a land invasion of Japan in late 1945. …which quickly bogs down in a bloody stalemate, with U.S. Air Command carpet-bombing Japanese cities into apocalyptic firestorms, and Japanese civilians taking to the hills to become guerrilla fighters. Stalin sends two armies into the Sakhalin Islands and Hokkaido, strengthening positions for a quick strike onto the crucial main island of Honshu. As American casualties mount, the U.S. is forced into an infuriating round of three-way peace negotiations which result in a permanent stalemate and ideologically partitioned Japan, with a Communist, Moscow-dominated North (renamed Japanese Siberia), a central, nationalist, xenophobic, and Emperor-worshipping Nippon, and an American-occupied Southern Japan (Kyushu and Shikoku). Humiliated, Truman declines to run for re-election and Eisenhower wins in a landslide on the promise to contain further Soviet expansion. When a bellicose Stalin springs the Berlin Wall in the spring of '49, Eisenhower decides to nuke Moscow – before they will be able to retaliate in kind. ---
**Author:** ![Snooooopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ee7513/32.png) [@Snooooopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snooooopy)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/54 "2005-02-17T04:43:49Z")
> [@Dooku](#): > > … penis ensues. Hooray? ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/55 "2005-02-17T05:40:14Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Critics paint rosy scenarios showing that Bush would have at least retaliated against the perpetrators, and a few other folks who happen to be in the way… Trying to beef up his image for a second term, President Gore takes a “hard hand” approach to North Korea, culminating in the U.S.-U.N. led “liberation action” of late 2003. Despite the U.S.’ claims, inspectors are unable to find an concrete evidence of North Korean nuclear weapons—in fact, their entire nuclear program was backwards and primitive, perhaps years away from creating a deliverable weapon. On the homefront, a conservative movement blasts Gore’s decision to send U.S. troops to fight in “the U.N.'s war.” U.S. military planners are criticized for not anticipating the massive need for food and basic infrastructure from North Korean population, and for being ill-prepared for the continuing threat posed by Chinese and loyalist Korean communist partisans. Kim Jong Il’s whereabouts remain unknown. Something like that. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/56 "2005-02-17T07:25:14Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > September 11th, 2001 might have passed without incident, but the nation is stunned by the anthrax attack in the Washington DC Metro the next march. Gore endures scathing criticism for ignoring the clear hints about fundamentalist Islamic development of bioweapons and wasting his efforts persecuting Middle Eastern men who just wanted to learn to fly. Not to hijack this thread, but given the Clinton Administration’s [well-documented “obsession” with fighting terrorism](http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/10/30/135644/95) in general and _Al Qaeda_ in particular, the notion that President Gore would reverse this trend and ignore early signs of terrorist activity doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/57 "2005-02-17T11:38:54Z")
OK, the German General Staff takes Lenin and puts him in a railcar headed for Finland Station. There he launches The Revolution. The Germans keep the railcar sealed to ensure the toxin of Communism does not escape. What if it did? The Germans become a Socialist Republic united with the Soviets at the same time a combined British/French Army mutany vapor locks the Associated Powers in place. The war never ended. One side can draw on the endless resources of the Soviets. The other of the New World. The East babbles mindless BS about worldwide socialism while The West goes on and on about Freedom. Both sides become military dictatorships. Technical innovation is hampered by massive losses at the front and a natural conservatism in societies fighting for their lives. People who might ‘make trouble’ are sent to the front. I have never seen any fiction that addresses this. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/58 "2005-02-17T12:44:42Z")
As you describe it, the result sounds _1984_-ish. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/59 "2005-02-17T12:58:39Z")
OK, so on 7 December, 1941 the American cruiser _USS Pearl Harbor_ is on nuetrality patrol in the North Sea when she is attacked and sunk by German airplanes. In the Pacific, the Japanese declare war on Germany as an excuse to sieze (Vichy) French Indochina. The American fleet (with a few Japanese allies) sails to Suez with a large contingent of Marines. World War II in Europe with no Pacific theater. Again, I have never seen this POD (unlikely as it is) discussed. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2005, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270/60 "2005-02-17T13:11:28Z")
In the 1930s, the US Army held that anti-aircraft guns were the basis for the defense of cities against air attack. They held two tests, where a sock target was towed behind an aircraft and was subject to small- and then large-calibre anti-aircraft fire. In our time line, the targets were untouched. As a result, the US went into fighter aircraft and aircraft carriers in a big way. What if the two targets were both shot down? We might presume this would have happened by dumb luck, or perhaps because aircraft were simply eas(ier) targets for AA fire than they are in our timeline. How would this have changed things? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-points-of-divergence-that-havent-been-done-yet/290270.md?page=4)