# \[Alternate History\] Would it have been better if Israel was carved out of Montana? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212 "2017-01-03T06:06:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/21 "2017-01-03T15:54:36Z")
This post is gibberish. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/22 "2017-01-03T16:03:50Z")
If we’re dreaming, I was always fond of the idea of creating (New) Israel out of a chunk of Germany. During the post-war reconstruction, it would have been (somewhat) easier, and has a nice karmic bonus. “You tried to kill them all, you damn Nazis? Well, now they are taking your precious Fatherland. Suck it!” People might have gotten used to it, and it would be the new normal. I wonder how the intervening years would have been different. When you don’t have to devote all your time and energy into fighting, maybe the Mideast would have become a thriving modern society. A guy can dream… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/23 "2017-01-03T16:09:11Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Israel is where Israel is because it’s where Israel was. It can’t be anywhere else any more than Montana can be in Mongolia instead of in Montana. Exactly. Except, it would be a whole lot easier to move Montana to Mongolia… Although, as non-historical solution, “The Jews” could have been offered some other place, maybe in Europe, as a state. It could have been sanctioned by the UN. Any Jews wishing to return to the historical Israel can do so, but they are on their own. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/24 "2017-01-03T16:16:54Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > I wonder how the intervening years would have been different. When you don’t have to devote all your time and energy into fighting, maybe the Mideast would have become a thriving modern society. > > A guy can dream… I think that dream puts a little too much weight on Israel as a source of fighting in the Middle East. Would Iraq and Iran or Syria and Saudi Arabia be buddies if Israel wasn’t there? ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/25 "2017-01-03T16:25:48Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > I think that dream puts a little too much weight on Israel as a source of fighting in the Middle East. Would Iraq and Iran or Syria and Saudi Arabia be buddies if Israel wasn’t there? Not so much the source of the fighting as the focus. Without Israel as the common enemy, the other countries might have kept fighting each other, and perhaps eventually, one or several winners might have emerged and ended further infighting. So maybe you’d have Egyptian-occupied Palestine (perhaps including Lebanon) and Saudi and a bunch of independent Emirates that just want to be left alone. Don’t know about Syria or Jordan. Who knows. I’m not a middle-eastern expert. I blame TE Lawrence for the problems in the middle east… ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/26 "2017-01-03T16:36:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Any Jews wishing to return to the historical Israel can do so, but they are on their own. How is that different from what actually happened? > [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > If we’re dreaming, I was always fond of the idea of creating (New) Israel out of a chunk of Germany. During the post-war reconstruction, it would have been (somewhat) easier, and has a nice karmic bonus. “You tried to kill them all, you damn Nazis? Well, now they are taking your precious Fatherland. Suck it!” People might have gotten used to it, and it would be the new normal. Well, aside from all those millions of displaced Germans who want their land back and are willing to spend the next seven or so decades fighting for it, while appealing to the UN and the international community for relief… hmmm, sounds familiar. ---
**Author:** ![Donpeyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a4c791/32.png) [@Donpeyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donpeyote)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/27 "2017-01-03T16:48:12Z")
Most of the folks replying here would need reading glasses to find Israel on any map ( so all this land Israel has appropriated for a " Greater Israel" seems to be an illusion … ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/28 "2017-01-03T17:56:17Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Well, just as an extension to the thought experiment, what do you think would happen if an indian reservation started randomly starting settlements well outside their designated area on land they didn’t own, and enforcing those settlements with internal military force? > > Oh right, they’d be gunned down by the US military, if racist rednecks with shotguns didn’t beat them to the punch. > > Just thought that would be worth mentioning. Did the USA lose a war of aggression against them? Did they try to drive them into the ocean? American Indians are free to buy land and settle it anywhere land is for sale. ---
**Author:** ![Univarsedivide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7ab992/32.png) [@Univarsedivide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Univarsedivide)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/29 "2017-01-03T18:08:48Z")
> [@Salvor](#): > > Or Wyoming, choose any empty state with not much going on. Perhaps Florida or Texas for some access to the ocean. > Imagine a world where instead of the jews trying to found their new state surrounded by hostility they went to more friendly territory, the US. We have indian reservations, why not something more advanced? > Now I know this idea is insane, will never happen, but since when has that stopped me from making posts?!? And if you had the power to wave a magic wand and rewrite history, or offer it up as a choice to Israelis living in Israel, do you think they would prefer abandoning their ancestral homeland in the pits of hell vs a new world surrounded by friends and allies? Hey Mate, yes I am from OZ, I think this would have been a great idea. And it isn’t their ancestral HOMELAND, God told them to take the land by force from the Phillistines. Isn’t that what Palastinians call themselves??? Did you know that the English held all of the middle east after the 2nd world war, but when the UN decided that Israel should be nation they gave the whole area autonamous rule? They knew what trouble that state would cause in the area. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/30 "2017-01-03T18:24:52Z")
Michael Chabon’s Yiddish Policeman’s Union - the Jewish state in Sitka Alaska. > **[Amazon.com: The Yiddish Policemen's Union: A Novel (P.S.): 9780007149834:...](https://www.amazon.com/Yiddish-Policemens-Union-Novel-P-S/dp/0007149832)** > > Amazon.com: The Yiddish Policemen's Union: A Novel (P.S.): 9780007149834: Chabon, Michael: Books ---
**Author:** ![Univarsedivide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7ab992/32.png) [@Univarsedivide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Univarsedivide)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/31 "2017-01-03T18:44:34Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > A Muslim taxi driver I once had tried to convince me that the region of Israel had never been owned or lived in by the Jews, until modern times. They’d always been usurpers to the region. > > At the time, I didn’t know enough to really refute him. I was aware that when Israel had been an occupied region, by the Romans, that the Jews were in charge of - so at least at one historic time period, they had been in control of that region - but I wasn’t sure otherwise. > > Now, I can pretty definitively say that the region of Israel is pretty exactly the region where the Jewish people originated, and their religion, and there isn’t even a previous claim to that even if you go back into prehistory. The Arabs were South and Southeast of the Jewish people (and were practicing [Arabic polytheism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_pre-Islamic_Arabia) at the time) and the two groups stayed pretty well separate from one another. > > Though, certainly, by the time Israel was re-established in modern day, the Jews had **long** since been displaced by various other groups. > > As a bunch of Europeans, having displaced a bunch of Native Americans, I’m not sure we have much place to say that length of occupation reigns supreme over current occupation. I wouldn’t say that the Israelis were owed Israel back, in its original location. > > On the other hand, I don’t subscribe to the idea that the Middle East is more chaotic and violent than the rest of the world. I’ve heard of plenty of revolutionary and terrorist groups throughout Asia and South America, just as I’ve heard of plenty of violence throughout sub-Saharan Africa. The Middle East just gets more attention in the media thanks to our involvement in that area, due to our interest in oil. If oil came from Angola, for example, I’m sure that we’d have all heard a lot more about the Angolan Civil War, that ran from 1975 to 2002. > > And of course, as an atheist, I don’t think there’s much to the idea that there’s a mystical bond between the Jewish people and the Levant. Plenty of religions have figured out ways to explain away inconvenient truths. I have no doubt that, if Israel had been created in Montana, a suitable explanation would have been made and a prophecy found in the Tanakh that foretold it. Everyone would have been happier. Hey Mate, check out my other post on this thread it will give you a big WTF ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/32 "2017-01-03T18:54:01Z")
> [@Univarsedivide](#): > > Hey Mate, check out my other post on this thread it will give you a big WTF It sure does. [WTF are you talking about?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_periods_in_the_Palestine_region) [A little more background.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel) ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/33 "2017-01-03T19:00:47Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > A Muslim taxi driver I once had tried to convince me that the region of Israel had never been owned or lived in by the Jews, until modern times. They’d always been usurpers to the region. Depending on where you draw the historical line for “modern times,” he may have a point. If the bible can be believed at all – which is doubtful – prior to ~2000BCE, the land now called Israel was occupied by non-Jewish tribes such as the Hittites, Canaanites, Jebusites, and many more, all barbarically overrun by the Jewish invasion. If anyone has claim to the land based upon ancient occupations, it’s not the Jews _nor_ the Palestinians. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/34 "2017-01-03T20:11:36Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How is that different from what actually happened? No UN vote for partition. No sanctioned state of Israel (where it is now). I would say that’s a significant difference. If you want to live in the UN sanctioned Jewish state, then you go wherever the alternate history decision set up that state (Germany, Montana, Outer Mongolia, wherever). ---
**Author:** ![Univarsedivide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7ab992/32.png) [@Univarsedivide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Univarsedivide)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/35 "2017-01-03T20:14:19Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It sure does. [WTF are you talking about?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_periods_in_the_Palestine_region) > > [A little more background.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel) It says in the bible, that god told the jews to follow moses to the holy land but when they got there, there was another tribe already there. read the Torah/Old testament ---
**Author:** ![Univarsedivide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7ab992/32.png) [@Univarsedivide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Univarsedivide)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/36 "2017-01-03T20:16:01Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > Depending on where you draw the historical line for “modern times,” he may have a point. > > If the bible can be believed at all – which is doubtful – prior to ~2000BCE, the land now called Israel was occupied by non-Jewish tribes such as the Hittites, Canaanites, Jebusites, and many more, all barbarically overrun by the Jewish invasion. If anyone has claim to the land based upon ancient occupations, it’s not the Jews _nor_ the Palestinians. Thanks Mate for knowing what I am TALKING(TYPING) about ---
**Author:** ![Univarsedivide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7ab992/32.png) [@Univarsedivide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Univarsedivide)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/37 "2017-01-03T20:18:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No UN vote for partition. No sanctioned state of Israel (where it is now). I would say that’s a significant difference. > > If you want to live in the UN sanctioned Jewish state, then you go wherever the alternate history decision set up that state (Germany, Montana, Outer Mongolia, wherever). I Think the south pole would be a good place only Penguins to fight there ---
**Author:** ![Univarsedivide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7ab992/32.png) [@Univarsedivide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Univarsedivide)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/38 "2017-01-03T20:22:10Z")
> [@Univarsedivide](#): > > It says in the bible, that god told the jews to follow moses to the holy land but when they got there, there was another tribe already there. read the Torah/Old testament Sorry mate in that book they say that the most trouble the HEBREWS had were with a group called the Philitines? Hence the name for people we don’t like or think are wrong ---
**Author:** ![Univarsedivide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7ab992/32.png) [@Univarsedivide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Univarsedivide)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/39 "2017-01-03T20:25:08Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > If we’re dreaming, I was always fond of the idea of creating (New) Israel out of a chunk of Germany. During the post-war reconstruction, it would have been (somewhat) easier, and has a nice karmic bonus. “You tried to kill them all, you damn Nazis? Well, now they are taking your precious Fatherland. Suck it!” People might have gotten used to it, and it would be the new normal. > > I wonder how the intervening years would have been different. When you don’t have to devote all your time and energy into fighting, maybe the Mideast would have become a thriving modern society. > > A guy can dream… Mate it is a wonder filled DREAM, this would have been the right kind of justice for what was done to that race ---
**Author:** ![Univarsedivide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7ab992/32.png) [@Univarsedivide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Univarsedivide)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2017, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/40 "2017-01-03T20:27:49Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > No UN vote for partition. No sanctioned state of Israel (where it is now). I would say that’s a significant difference. > > If you want to live in the UN sanctioned Jewish state, then you go wherever the alternate history decision set up that state (Germany, Montana, Outer Mongolia, wherever). The only problem with this is that the decision was made before our lifetimes. I wish that the people on this board were voting on that UN resolution. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212.md?page=3)