# \[Alternate History\] Would it have been better if Israel was carved out of Montana? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212 "2017-01-03T06:06:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/41 "2017-01-04T04:14:28Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > If oil came from Angola, for example, I’m sure that we’d have all heard a lot more about the Angolan Civil War, that ran from 1975 to 2002. > > And of course, as an atheist, I don’t think there’s much to the idea that there’s a mystical bond between the Jewish people and the Levant. Plenty of religions have figured out ways to explain away inconvenient truths. I have no doubt that, if Israel had been created in Montana, a suitable explanation would have been made and a prophecy found in the Tanakh that foretold it. Everyone would have been happier. Uh, oil does from Angola. The United States imported more oil from Angola than from Kuwait in the late 2000s, though it has imported much less since 2010. I think the Israeli issue is salient in American politics for reasons other than oil (and I agree with you that the world would probably have been better off if a Jewish national state had been created somewhere other than the Levant, though at this point what’s done is done). > **[Visualising U.S. Oil Imports](https://howmuch.net/articles/oil-imports-gif-15-years)** > > This GIF Shows Where the U.S. Imports Oil From in the Past 15 Years ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/42 "2017-01-04T04:18:04Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > How is that different from what actually happened? > > Well, aside from all those millions of displaced Germans who want their land back and are willing to spend the next seven or so decades fighting for it, while appealing to the UN and the international community for relief… hmmm, sounds familiar. 12-13 million Germans were kicked out of eastern Europe _anyway_, and they’re not “fighting for that land back”, although they have complained about it. Probably because at some level they realized it was fair reprisals for WWII and they were lucky to have a country left at all. Palestinians on the other hand, felt (rightly) they didn’t have anything to owe reprisals for. It wouldn’t have been that difficult to create a Jewish State in, e.g. Koenigsberg / Kaliningrad in 1946, since the Germans had been expelled anyway and there weren’t (as yet) many Russians living there. ---
**Author:** ![Univarsedivide](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/7ab992/32.png) [@Univarsedivide](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Univarsedivide)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/43 "2017-01-04T04:59:28Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > It sure does. [WTF are you talking about?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_periods_in_the_Palestine_region) > > [A little more background.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_and_Judaism_in_the_Land_of_Israel) The old testament was written to say that god told them to take the land. We are right and you (who were living here first) are not the real owners/dwellers of this land. But how far can we go with this, should the native americans be given heavy weaponry and be allowed to see how much land they could take back in 48 hours? While displacing those who legally own the land. When it is all said and done we all originate from one tribe of sub saharan Africa. So do we all go back there and leave the rest of the world to the animals? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/44 "2017-01-04T05:01:38Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > Palestinians on the other hand, felt (rightly) they didn’t have anything to owe reprisals for. It wouldn’t have been that difficult to create a Jewish State in, e.g. Koenigsberg / Kaliningrad in 1946, since the Germans had been expelled anyway and there weren’t (as yet) many Russians living there. And what of the millions of Jews _already_ living in Palestine in 1946, who didn’t have anything to owe reprisals for? I guess it’s OK to expect _them_ to pack their stuff and flee their homeland as well? Jews didn’t just move to Israel because the UN told them it was OK - they’d already been migrating there since before the turn of the century. Either there was going to be a Jewish state in Palestine with or without the UN’s permission, or there was going to be another genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/45 "2017-01-04T13:11:33Z")
> [@Donpeyote](#): > > Most of the folks replying here would need reading glasses to find Israel on any map ( so all this land Israel has appropriated for a " Greater Israel" seems to be an illusion … If Vatican City appropriated all of Rome by force, we’d still be talking about a violent military appropriate, regardless of how much tinier it would still be than the area Israel has taken over. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/46 "2017-01-04T14:52:41Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > 12-13 million Germans were kicked out of eastern Europe _anyway_, and they’re not “fighting for that land back”, although they have complained about it. Probably because at some level they realized it was fair reprisals for WWII and they were lucky to have a country left at all. Palestinians on the other hand, felt (rightly) they didn’t have anything to owe reprisals for. It wouldn’t have been that difficult to create a Jewish State in, e.g. Koenigsberg / Kaliningrad in 1946, since the Germans had been expelled anyway and there weren’t (as yet) many Russians living there. Except Stalin would never had allowed a fifth column in the USSR. > **[Joseph Stalin and antisemitism](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalin_and_antisemitism)** > > The accusation that Joseph Stalin was antisemitic is much discussed by historians. Although part of a movement that included Jews and rejected antisemitism, he privately displayed a contemptuous attitude toward Jews on various occasions that were witnessed by his contemporaries, and are documented by historical sources. Stalin argued that the Jews possessed a "national character" but were not a "nation" and were thus unassimilable. He argued that Jewish nationalism, particularly Zionism, was h... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/47 "2017-01-04T15:20:37Z")
> [@Musicat](#): > > If the bible can be believed at all – which is doubtful – prior to ~2000BCE, the land now called Israel was occupied by non-Jewish tribes such as the Hittites, Canaanites, Jebusites, and many more, all barbarically overrun by the Jewish invasion. If anyone has claim to the land based upon ancient occupations, it’s not the Jews _nor_ the Palestinians. I believe modern Palestinians claim they are the descendants of the Canaanites. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/48 "2017-01-04T15:51:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I believe modern Palestinians claim they are the descendants of the Canaanites. Many are also likely descendants of Jews who weren’t part of the diaspora and were converted to Islam after Palestine was conquered by Arabic invaders. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/49 "2017-01-04T16:18:36Z")
I don’t think there’s any way you’d get 3/4 of the states to agree to the constitutional amendment you’d need to carve land out of a US state and use it to form a new country or new territory under US jurisdiction. Even after WW2, there was enough antisemitism that I would not expect that level of support. You’d also run into first amendment problems if you didn’t make it a completely independent country, since you can’t have a state Religion in the US. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/50 "2017-01-04T16:29:45Z")
_Oy give me a lend Vhere de broight diamond send, Flows leisurely down in de strim_ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/51 "2017-01-04T16:58:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And what of the millions of Jews _already_ living in Palestine in 1946… Just to be clear, there were not even 1M Jews there in 1946, certainly not “millions”. Hundreds of thousands, yes, but \< 1M. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/52 "2017-01-04T20:19:56Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, there were not even 1M Jews there in 1946, certainly not “millions”. Hundreds of thousands, yes, but \< 1M. Nope, there weren’t. About half a million (compared to a touch over a million Muslims) IIRC by the early 40’s. By 1960 you can start talking about ‘millions’, but not before that. To be fair though, the population density of the entire region was pretty sparse before the 40’s for all ‘races’ and religiously affiliated folks. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/53 "2017-01-04T20:32:12Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Nope, there weren’t. About half a million (compared to a touch over a million Muslims) IIRC by the early 40’s. By 1960 you can start talking about ‘millions’, but not before that. > > To be fair though, the population density of the entire region was pretty sparse before the 40’s for all ‘races’ and religiously affiliated folks. Had the British and the Germans not banned immigration at various points between 33-45 there would have been many more. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/54 "2017-01-04T20:34:56Z")
The History of Humanity is the history of movement. Migrations, invasions. It is only in the last couple of centuries that we’ve gotten this idea that people should stay where they are. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/55 "2017-01-04T20:38:47Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Had the British and the Germans not banned immigration at various points between 33-45 there would have been many more. Maybe, but the statement was still wrong. There weren’t millions of Jews in the region until the 60’s. There was A million Muslims in British Mandate area at the time and, IIRC about a 100k Christians. It wasn’t very heavily populated by anyone (there are something like 8-9 million folks in the region today) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/56 "2017-01-04T20:56:07Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > The History of Humanity is the history of movement. Migrations, invasions. It is only in the last couple of centuries that we’ve gotten this idea that people should stay where they are. We have? I think it’s the opposite. (Emphasis added) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/57 "2017-01-04T23:20:15Z")
> [@Univarsedivide](#): > > Hey Mate, yes I am from OZ, I think this would have been a great idea. And it isn’t their ancestral HOMELAND, God told them to take the land by force from the Phillistines. Isn’t that what Palastinians call themselves??? The Philistines lived in the region of what is now the Gaza Strip (which is now within the borders of Israel). Like the Israelites, they were a Canaanitic people, who worshiped El, Baal, etc. Often, they’re considered separate from the remaining Canaanites because the Greeks talked about them a bit and because the Bible presents them as a separate group. In a sense they were, just as the Moabites, the Edomites, etc. were each their own separate kingdom. But they were all speaking roughly the same language and worshiping roughly the same gods. The Israelites never conquered Canaan. They were Canaanites who took on monotheism, due to heavy influence from the Persians during the 6th century BC. When they wrote the Tanakh, they saw that they were worshiping differently than the people around them and assumed they must have fought their way in and conquered everything. There certainly were battles between the Israelites, the Edomites, Moabites, and probably with the Philistines. That’s how kingdoms work. But the Philistines, based on ancient history, don’t have any more beef with the Israelites than the Israelites have with them or anyone else. Everything largely stayed in place, despite the internal fights between the groups through ancient times. The big conquests were by the Egyptians, the Persians, the Hittites, etc. Despite all their Biblical history of badassery in combat, the archaeological record shows the Canaanite kingdoms as having been vassal states of the surrounding empires, most of the time. The Biblical history is false in places and overblown in others. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/58 "2017-01-05T02:27:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > It can’t be anywhere else any more than Montana can be in Mongolia instead of in Montana. Funny you should mention that. I read in National Geographic in 1980 where the writer visited nomadic Kazakhs in the Altay Mountains Kazakh area of Xinjiang, right next to the Kazakh region of Mongolia. the writer remarked: “We could have been in a Blackfoot encampment in Montana a hundred years ago.” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/59 "2017-01-05T09:12:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Just to be clear, there were not even 1M Jews there in 1946, certainly not “millions”. Hundreds of thousands, yes, but \< 1M. Upon looking it up, I see it was around 600,000 at the time. Still, I’m sure you can imagine that a forcible deportation of Jews wouldn’t have been an easy sell in 1946. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2017, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/60 "2017-01-05T15:59:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Upon looking it up, I see it was around 600,000 at the time. Still, I’m sure you can imagine that a forcible deportation of Jews wouldn’t have been an easy sell in 1946. They needn’t have been forcibly expelled. They could stay, they just don’t get their own state there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212.md?page=4)