# \[Alternate History\] Would it have been better if Israel was carved out of Montana? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 3, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212 "2017-01-03T06:06:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/81 "2017-01-13T13:21:23Z")
Jews are a people. Christianity is purely a religion. A Jew who doesn’t believe in God is still a Jew, just not a very good one. A Christian who doesn’t believe in God is not a Christian at all. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/82 "2017-01-13T13:28:52Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > A > That is false. > > The repeating of the propaganda is very boring, the same kind of a propaganda that spread the deception about the arabs calling for the Palestinians to leave in 1948. To take the [neutral source](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Palestine_(region)), “The overall assessment of several British reports was that the increase in the Arab population was primarily due to natural increase. These included the Hope Simpson Enquiry (1930),[49] the Passfield White Paper (1930),[50] the Peel Commission report (1937),[51] and the Survey of Palestine (1945).[52]” The Brits can say what they want, unless the Arabs went on a major sex spree starting in 1931, immigration was a big part of the Arab population increase. The Arab population took over 100 years to double in the 19th century and then suddenly doubles in just 25 years in the 20th century? Give me a break. As your cite shows, the British ignored illegal Arab immigration during the Mandate period, which makes their figures suspect. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2017, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/83 "2017-01-13T20:31:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Jews are a people. Christianity is purely a religion. A Jew who doesn’t believe in God is still a Jew, just not a very good one. A Christian who doesn’t believe in God is not a Christian at all. That confused me for a long time; I had thought that “Jews for Jesus” had to be oxymoronic. Still, for a “people,” the boundary is permeable. There is no possible process by which I can obtain Irish ethnicity, but I can become a Jew. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/84 "2017-01-14T00:48:44Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Jews are a people. Christianity is purely a religion. A Jew who doesn’t believe in God is still a Jew, just not a very good one. A Christian who doesn’t believe in God is not a Christian at all. You’re free to believe that. So those Ethiopian Jews, good Jews who happen to not be really Jewish or what? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/85 "2017-01-14T01:18:45Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > You’re free to believe that. So those Ethiopian Jews, good Jews who happen to not be really Jewish or what? You mean the South African Jews who can trace their DNA back to the original Jews? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/86 "2017-01-14T01:23:02Z")
[http://link.library.deakin.edu.au/portal/60-minutes-The-Lemba-produced-by-Shari/GjtNrYSfCE4/](http://link.library.deakin.edu.au/portal/60-minutes-The-Lemba-produced-by-Shari/GjtNrYSfCE4/) ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/87 "2017-01-14T01:44:50Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You mean the South African Jews who can trace their DNA back to the original Jews? No, I meant Ethiopian Jews. Like I said in plain English. > **[Beta Israel](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel)** > > The Beta Israel,\[b\] or Ethiopian Jews,\[c\] are an African community of the Jewish diaspora. They coalesced in the Kingdom of Aksum and the Ethiopian Empire, which is currently divided between the Amhara Region and Tigray Region in modern-day Ethiopia. After the founding of the State of Israel in 1948, most of the Beta Israel immigrated to Israel or were evacuated from Africa through several initiatives by the Israeli government. > Historically, Beta Israel lived in northern and northwestern Ethiopi... ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/88 "2017-01-14T03:31:38Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > No, I meant Ethiopian Jews. Like I said in plain English. > [Beta Israel - Wikipedia](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_Israel) You make no sense. How would they be any less Jewish than any other Jew? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/89 "2017-01-14T05:50:34Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > . . . So those Ethiopian Jews, good Jews who happen to not be really Jewish or what? Dunno if that follows. Again, I’m not Jewish in any way whatever…but there are procedures by which I can become one. At that point, while one might scoff at my being an “ethnic Jew,” it would still be true that my kids would be “ethnic Jews.” Meanwhile, the Ethiopian Jews had a pretty solid Jewish pedigree, going back a hell of a long time. That was a really bad example for you to zero in on. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/90 "2017-01-14T09:54:17Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The Brits can say what they want, So you decide to throw out any of the actual data from the authorities and retain the pure assertion. the fundamental remains your first claims about the 1930s were not correct and are falsified by the records available. The No True Christian arguments you make simply show your ignorance of the culture of the region, on top of the ignorance of the history. the repetition of the biased partisan propaganda is boring. > [@](#): > > As your cite shows, the British ignored illegal Arab immigration during the Mandate period, which makes their figures suspect. It shows no such thing. There is a partisan researcher who asserts such a thing, but there are others that refute. The cherry picking. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/91 "2017-01-14T12:48:46Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > You make no sense. How would they be any less Jewish than any other Jew? > [@Trinopus](#): > > Dunno if that follows. Again, I’m not Jewish in any way whatever…but there are procedures by which I can become one. At that point, while one might scoff at my being an “ethnic Jew,” it would still be true that my kids would be “ethnic Jews.” > > Meanwhile, the Ethiopian Jews had a pretty solid Jewish pedigree, going back a hell of a long time. That was a really bad example for you to zero in on. And would you say they are of the same “people” as Jerry Seinfeld? ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/92 "2017-01-14T16:23:59Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And would you say they are of the same “people” as Jerry Seinfeld? Why wouldn’t they be? ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/93 "2017-01-14T17:10:20Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Jews are a people. Christianity is purely a religion. A Jew who doesn’t believe in God is still a Jew, just not a very good one. A Christian who doesn’t believe in God is not a Christian at all. Do you have a cite that George Habash didn’t believe in God? Michel Aflaq (who was also on the hard left) certainly did. Regardless it’s certainly not correct to posit a Jewish vs Arab conflict as “Jews vs Muslims.” Middle Eastern Christians tend to oppose the state of Israel much the same way that Muslims do. Though it’s certainly true that The occupied territories are much more uniformly Muslim than they used to be, since most Christian Palestinians have emigrated. Also, a natural doubling of population in 25 years (in a pre-contraception era and in the context of a relatively patriarchal society) doesn’t seem unrealistic to me. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/94 "2017-01-14T17:20:25Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Why wouldn’t they be? Different language, culture and history. And you may not have noticed this but Ethiopian jews are black and Jerry Seinfeld ain’t. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/95 "2017-01-14T18:12:44Z")
Jerry Seinfeld doesn’t look like Ofra Haza either. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/96 "2017-01-14T19:14:45Z")
Of course “Jewish” is an ethnicity. If I told you of a fellow named Patrick O’Brien, whose favorite song is “O Danny Boy”, whose favorite food is boxty (the way his grandmother used to make it), and who grew up in a Gaelic-speaking household, would you have any difficulty guessing his ethnicity? What if, instead, I told you of a fellow named David Cohen, whose favorite song is “Hava Nagila”, whose favorite food is gefilte fish (the way his grandmother used to make it), and who grew up in a Hebrew-speaking household? Does it matter that I didn’t tell you either of those guys’ religions? ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/97 "2017-01-14T19:46:50Z")
Do you really think Jewish people whose family never left the middle east and people in Ethiopia who converted hundreds of years ago all share the European jewish stereotypes you just listed? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/98 "2017-01-14T21:06:53Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > And would you say they are of the same “people” as Jerry Seinfeld? Is Jack O’Brady, born in Brooklyn, of the same ethnic group as George O’Brady, born in Cork? Is Jack “Irish” or not, given his parents were both born in Ireland? Is ethnos genetic? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/99 "2017-01-14T21:17:01Z")
The names “David” and “Cohen”, the dish gefiltefish, and the Hebrew language are all found among Jews worldwide, not just in Europe. “David” is the name of one of the heroes of the Jewish scripture, “Cohen” is the line of the priests, gefiltefish is made to comply with certain aspects of Kosher and Sabbath laws, and Hebrew is the language of the Jewish scripture. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2017, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212/100 "2017-01-14T21:44:51Z")
So just so I’m sure, are you trying to argue that the Beta Israel are in the same ethnic group as Jerry Seinfeld? And they eat gefiltefish? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-history-would-it-have-been-better-if-israel-was-carved-out-of-montana/776212.md?page=6)