# Alternate scenarios for the geographical setting of the Jewish State **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832 "2011-05-23T00:15:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/21 "2011-05-23T01:57:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If we’re going to accept that the Jews are brainy and ambitious, can we drag in another tired stereotype? That of the effete, nebbish Jew? Yeah, a smart person may be able to work out how to work non-arable land, but actually put in the required brute force? What? That’s what the dumb Ethiopians are for? Oh, I see. I guess it would work then. > > ☹ > > Apologies for being provocative, **Argent**. I just don’t like when people play up the good stereotypes and conveniently leave out the bad ones. The Jews are brainy people, it’s just a fact. Look at the percentages of Nobel prize winners in physics, chemistry, economics and medicine who have been Jewish. Look at the number of Jews who participated in the Manhattan Project. _Jewish culture encourages studiousness._ This is just a fact. Jewish culture has _always_ valued education and intellect. And the effete, nebbish Jew is based in reality - based in the very reality I am talking about. But it’s a hell of a lot easier to make a smart weakling strong than to make a dumb brute intelligent. When Israel’s farms needed to be plowed and its wars fought, the Jews rose to the occasion. I read _The Yiddish Policemen’s Union._ I thought it was a fascinating concept but a wretchedly written book that used way, way, way too many metaphors and similies. Vastly overrated book. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/22 "2011-05-23T02:04:33Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is true. Jews are one step below Asians on the racial smartness scale. It’s too bad they are naturally money grubbing. No rhythm, either. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/23 "2011-05-23T02:10:01Z")
I think Buddy Rich and Max Weinberg would disagree with that. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/24 "2011-05-23T02:17:39Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The Jews are brainy people, it’s just a fact. Look at the percentages of Nobel prize winners in physics, chemistry, economics and medicine who have been Jewish. Look at the number of Jews who participated in the Manhattan Project. _Jewish culture encourages studiousness._ This is just a fact. Jewish culture has _always_ valued education and intellect. > > And the effete, nebbish Jew is based in reality - based in the very reality I am talking about. But it’s a hell of a lot easier to make a smart weakling strong than to make a dumb brute intelligent. When Israel’s farms needed to be plowed and its wars fought, the Jews rose to the occasion. > > I read _The Yiddish Policemen’s Union._ I thought it was a fascinating concept but a wretchedly written book that used way, way, way too many metaphors and similies. Vastly overrated book. No, it’s a fact that people from some ethnic groups do better in certain academic markers, this tends to coincide with groups that, like you say, emphasize studiousness. That includes a lot of American immigrants from Asia (India, China, Korea especially) and even Mormons. However it isn’t a fact that “Jews” in general are smarter than anyone else, just like it isn’t a fact that Asian Americans are smarter than other Americans. While I have no problem with the generalization I should point out it’s just as ignorant to talk about “those smart Jews” as it would be for me to remark “man, we need to hire some blacks to play on the company basketball team!” Or to assume that a Japanese person can teach me martial arts. I hate to break it to you, but Jews aren’t special, no group is. All groups of peoples _are_ unique, but that isn’t the same thing. In reality the only reason we know about Jews at all (compare Jewish cultural relevance to any number of religious/ethnic groups wiped out in the 5000 or so years since Judaism has existed) is because they are seen as the philosophical parents of Christians and Islam. If not for that they never would have been permitted to exist by Muslim and Christian leaders and they’d be just as footnote in history akin to traditional Baltic religious groups or Roman mystery cults. The resilience of the Jews is not based on anything special about them, but instead based upon a willingness of Christian and Muslim rulers for the past ~2,000 years to shelter and harbor Jews. You do realize Jews didn’t settle in all those European countries secretly? They were often times invited there. It is true that at various times they were also later expelled or persecuted, but if not for the fact Christian and Muslim rulers viewed Jews as being cut from the same religious cloth they would have been treated in the _exact_ same way as the native religion of the Lithuanians, which was truly exterminated from the earth (and has been resurrected as a pseudo-religious cultural movement in the late 19th/early 20th century.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/25 "2011-05-23T02:20:40Z")
Also oddly enough I was thinking of this exact issue in recent days. The United States could have sold 5% of the land area of Montana to “the Jewish people” and let them set up their own independent country there, and it would be the same size as Israel is today. Montana has cold winters but overall it’s nothing like the northeastern fringe of Russia, it’s very livable with lots of farming. It’s also so sparsely populated we could have picked an area 5% of the State’s land and probably displaced _very_ few people (who could have been compensated.) ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/26 "2011-05-23T02:49:56Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > The Jews are brainy people, it’s just a fact. Look at the percentages of Nobel prize winners in physics, chemistry, economics and medicine who have been Jewish. Look at the number of Jews who participated in the Manhattan Project. _Jewish culture encourages studiousness._ This is just a fact. Jewish culture has _always_ valued education and intellect. > > And the effete, nebbish Jew is based in reality - based in the very reality I am talking about. But it’s a hell of a lot easier to make a smart weakling strong than to make a dumb brute intelligent. When Israel’s farms needed to be plowed and its wars fought, the Jews rose to the occasion. Is that why they are still fighting? Because they are always rising to the occassion, and their brainyness is lacking in common sense? No, I don’t believe that Jews are a “brainy people.” Just like Mexicans are not a “lazy people” and black people are not a “dumb people.” Jewish people are a heterogeneous lot who are hard to generalize. You do your folks no favor by trumpeting the “truth” of their stereotypes, because in doing so you invite others to say, “Hey, if it’s a fact that they are brainy and nebbish, then it must be a fact that they are money-grubbing liars who want to destroy this planet based on their own selfish greed!” Once you make one lie a “truth”, then all the other lies become less so. If one stereotype is true, what makes the others wrong? Anyway, if the Jews are naturally nebbish, then they wouldn’t be in Israel. And if they are brainy, they also wouldn’t be in Israel. Grok on that for a spell. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Darryl\_Lict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7cd45c/32.png) [@Darryl\_Lict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darryl_Lict)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/27 "2011-05-23T03:31:15Z")
There was also some sort of proposal to make some portion of [Tasmania](http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2010/s2795292.htm) the Jewish homeland. > [@](#): > > CONOR DUFFY: Port Davey in Tasmania’s far south-west lies on the lonely edge of the world. Its home to stunning mountains, thick untamed rainforest, wild rivers and unspoilt coastline. > > RICHARD FLANAGAN, AUTHOR: The odd thing is that Port Davey, to this day, remains one of the remotest, wildest places on Earth. That um, it never really changed. > > CONOR DUFFY: But this wilderness could also have been the unlikely site of a Jewish homeland. In the early 1940s the son of a wealthy Melbourne businessman Critchley Parker Junior fell in love with a Jewish journalist Caroline Isaksson. Struck by the plight of Jews in Europe he became a champion of their cause. Apparently the guy died before he could make the plan come to fruition. > [@](#): > > Ultimately though Critchley Parker’s dream would end in tragedy. In 1942 Critchley Parker returned to Port Davey on his own to survey the boundaries for the new state. Struck down by pleurisy he was found dead four months later, the victim of exposure and hunger. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/28 "2011-05-23T03:36:28Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And if they are brainy, they also wouldn’t be in Israel. Grok on that for a spell. 🙂 Why, is there something in the water in Israel that makes people stupid. I’m met many Palestinians and none have struck me as stupid. What makes you think that’s true of Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Argent\_Towers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e8c25b/32.png) [@Argent\_Towers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Argent_Towers)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/29 "2011-05-23T04:29:07Z")
I think it’s absolutely absurd to discount the idea that a particular culture can have certain pervasive ideas about studiousness, education and work ethics and that these factors can result in that group being, on average, smarter. I’m not saying that Jews have some kind of “smart gene,” just that the culture, overall, has demonstrated a degree of intellectual and scientific skills far out of proportion to its numbers. If what I’m saying has no validity, care to explain why the Jews, who are something like 1% of the world’s population, have won around 20% of Nobel Prizes? Or why Israel, despite its tiny size, produces more start-up companies than the United States? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/30 "2011-05-23T04:33:05Z")
> [@Argent\_Towers](#): > > Or why Israel, despite its tiny size, produces more start-up companies than the United States? That at least doesn’t have much if anything to do with being smart. A greater willingness/ability to take that kind of risk perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/31 "2011-05-23T04:41:18Z")
They could take Arizona off our hands if they’d like. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/32 "2011-05-23T04:48:56Z")
Alternative settings? [http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/jerusalem-jewish-sites.htm](http://www.sacred-destinations.com/israel/jerusalem-jewish-sites.htm) > [@](#): > > The only remaining part of Herod’s Temple is the _ **holiest site in Judaism** _ and functions as an open-air synagogue where prayers are constantly being said. Not likely to happen. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/33 "2011-05-23T05:46:44Z")
The Jews can have Texas. All of it. But they have to promise to keep the natives on reservations and **never let them out.** ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/34 "2011-05-23T05:50:36Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > No rhythm, either. Until the still unexplained genetic shift, Jews were the best basketball players. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/35 "2011-05-23T06:49:31Z")
Am I wrong in thinking that maybe there shouldn’t be a country/state set aside for any particular religion or race? I want people to be able to be safe and everything, but is setting up a big gated community really the best answer? Maybe I’m being naive, I don’t know. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/36 "2011-05-23T09:41:24Z")
The Jewish Autonomous Oblast and Birobidzhan are actually in the _south_eastern, not northeastern part of Russia. Roughly on the 48’th parallel, about the same as Michigan or southern Germany. While that doesn’t mean the climate or the soil is the same, it doesn’t seem all that unworkable for agriculture on the surface (I know nothing about agriculture). The winters appear to be quite cold, but the summers are nice nice and warm. Also, there are things like lumber and mining industries, which I’m sure they would capitalize on well. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/37 "2011-05-23T09:45:00Z")
> [@treis](#): > > This is true. Jews are one step below Asians on the racial smartness scale. It’s too bad they are naturally money grubbing. The average IQ of an Oriental is 106. The average IQ of an Ashkenazic Jew is 112. Although most Jews in the United States are prosperous, most vote Democrat because of their concern for those who are not prosperous. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/38 "2011-05-23T09:46:59Z")
The Jews have every conceivable right to live in the land of their ancestors. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/39 "2011-05-23T09:57:07Z")
I generously offer Sweden to the Jews as their new homeland. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@New\_Deal\_Democrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Deal_Democrat)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2011, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832/40 "2011-05-23T09:58:50Z")
During the Second World War the Palestinians supported the Nazis. During the Cold War they supported the Soviet Union. During the War in the Gulf they supported the Soviet Union. This is how they responded to 9/11: [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KrM0dAFsZ8k) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alternate-scenarios-for-the-geographical-setting-of-the-jewish-state/582832.md?page=3)